[Dancing frogs]

Re: Recipe 2

Try spreading it out over a permeable surface (I used newspaper over a screen suspended over large rubbermaid sweaterboxes). If the edges are drying too quickly you can place saran wrap over the edges to keep the edges moister and prevent it from drying too quickly.

Ed

Yeah, for this latest (larger batches) I bought some cheap plastic, ventilated shelving units and covered them with duck canvas (back in high school ceramics we used to use canvas covered benches) seems to be drying much more even.

Still looking for input as to easier ways to break the stuff up...adding all the time up in the various steps of the process, I'm pretty much spending the better part of a day to make enough substrate for a small tank...but then again, if done right, should last forever.
My tanks set up with ABG were doing great for the longest time, but now, after 5-6 years of use, the substrate is definatly showing wear and tear.

 

[Ed]

Re: Recipe 2

Yeah, for this latest (larger batches) I bought some cheap plastic, ventilated shelving units and covered them with duck canvas (back in high school ceramics we used to use canvas covered benches) seems to be drying much more even.

Still looking for input as to easier ways to break the stuff up...adding all the time up in the various steps of the process, I'm pretty much spending the better part of a day to make enough substrate for a small tank...but then again, if done right, should last forever.
My tanks set up with ABG were doing great for the longest time, but now, after 5-6 years of use, the substrate is definatly showing wear and tear.

If you can use the canvas to support it or a flexible plastic sheet you can turn the clay over onto a screen of the desired width and then use a rolling pin to push it through with the plastic/canvas keeping it from sticking to the pin (basically a poor man's extruder). roll some through, tilt the screen up and run a dough scraper/cutter down the screen to break it off into particles the length you want to use. You can add a little vegetable or olive oil on the blade of the dough scraper to keep the clay from sticking (as the microbes in the tanks will quickly deal with any left over oil).



Ed

 

[Ed]

That my experience with fish tanks, now my question is: do you guys think I can just mix either top soil with clay (same clay I use for my fish tanks, with out crushing the clay) or just use lecca then place screen on top add moss, then 1"1/2 layer of clay (again not crushing the clay) and the top soil or other type of soil?, can this work fine or is there any risks for the frogs??, and I was thinking to add Uv light for the plants too.
Any comments or toughs??

you can use the clay without crushing it up but then the pore space is lost and it doesn't work as well as an invert refugia. I have one test tank set up along these lines and the invert population is not even close. Even the ABG mix has a better invert population in it.

Ed

 

[stchupa]

Something as maybe an interesting note to build from (remind/"simplify"). The thing I've come to noticed w/ co co over the past (and I hope most others) is that for short term substrate it is nearly the perfect natural material as far as all it's inherent properties (i.e. cell structure/memory, natural biotic inhibitors and then of course what ever 'listless' "unrecognixed" 'un'-"imaginables"-)possibly should be rethought before being entirely thrown out of the mix

The problem (as I see it) isn't neccessarliy the material but the state it was left (intended) as. Although coconut husk may have anti-properties it's devolped in defense of the embryo not the husk decaying, an impermanant property in it's 'intended' state. Now take the same material (coco, prefferably in chunks and not milled) char it and what you then should have (If done prperly and not entirely burned to ash) is a product w/ nearly alll the same short term properties you'd want to keep but you easily double the properties "life" expectancy of decay when alone and then multi times that when mixed in a 'soil' substrate.> One property that is reversed by this process is the leaching by coco in water/other materials to sequestering those materials/minerals by the charred coco, in some case fortifying it and extending the expectancy.

Not to limit any guidance further by applying that example only to coco, but it just happens to be some good 'stuff' (imo)the ever too common waaay overlooked, cheap and mostly ready. Hopefully when spring comes I can work on larger bales and formulate a surfactant (sugar water/ yeast base) that can expand the bails evenly to the right density w/out entirely saturating/fluffing them and to get them as close to a slow smolder as possible. No one was intirely 'wrong' in the begining.

 

[Dancing frogs]

Just an idea for stabilizing the structure of clay substrate:
When I have experimented with buttermilk/moss milkshake, the results a few days later is a nice, thick layer of mold and or mycelium (though this was on ABG mix), which springtails absolutely loved till mites took over.
I'm thinking it may have some benefit to lightly coat the clay after doing the landscaping, thinking the fungus growing through it will help hold the air pockets and keep it from compacting...I wouldn't bet on good moss growth on it however.

I was wondering if anyone has had trouble with certain plants due to the high pH of most clays?
I was also wondering how much of the unfired clay is really needed for what we are trying to acheive.
I was kind of thinking 1 inch (maybee even less?) of unfired clay on top of a couple inches of fired clay (such as the soilmaster) would be plenty.

Just some thoughts, my first big batch of clay is almost completely processed (measured,mixed, boiled, baked, dried, pulverized, re-compressed, and pulverized again).

 

[Ed]

Hi Brian,

I have some test tanks set-up right now that have between 1 and 2 inches of the clay substrate over either gravel or fired clay. These are flow throughs so I don't have to worry about too much calcium.. (Brent Brock made a comment on this) but even in recirculating tanks I haven't seen too much of an issue with it.
So far I have mosses, various ferns, bromeliads, and some kind of peperomia growing in the clay without an issue.

Ed

 

[nish07]

Can someone give me an idea of how long it takes for this stuff to dry. Also, what the best thickness is to paste it out (assuming it was on some sort of semi permeable surface like a screen with newspaper over it).

I would need to make a ton Brent's stuff for my tanks and I'm trying to find out what the fastest and most efficient method for it would be.

-Nish

 

[Jason]

It only takes only a few days for this stuff to dry, especially since it is less humid here in the northern states. When I made mine, I just added enough water to make it stick together slightly. The less water you add the better, I think. I tried to make some of Matt's recipe, but I think I added too much water and it never dried out and molded over.

I dried it on burlap (but found a screen top to work the best), elevated with a fan blowing over top. I think I have a post about the process somewhere, let's see.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35767-dyi-my-take-clay-based-substrate.html

It really only took me 20 minutes to mix up and make a batch to fill a 20 vert. It is hard to do any more, cause the mixing would be almost impossible. I actually had to transfer it back and forth from one bucket to another to get it all mixed up properly.

I wouldn't jump a head and change over all your tanks, try it in one or two and see how you, your frogs and your microfauna like it. It is nice to compare it to another set up I think. Oh, and No I don't have any in a tank yet.

 

[nish07]

Thanks for the reply,

I need to find out where to get these screens to push the clay through. I'm going to attempt brent's recipe. Also, I need to find a source for screen large enough to spread out quite a bit at once.

Still, with Brent's recipe, I need to know how long it'll take to dry (when the optimum time for breaking it apart would be). I need to make approximately 15-20 gallons of it so if I can make it and store it in a paint bucket (with lid) that'd be best.

Also, is there any reason I should not substitute Koi Bentonite instead of kitty litter? Does bentonite kitty litter contain sodium bentonite?

-Nish

 

[Ed]

Use a large aquarium screen to push the clay through. You can use a large paint scraper or putty knife to make it easier to push through the screen. If the clay is sticking to the scraper too much you can smear or spray a little vegetable oil on the knife to reduce sticking or keep rinsing it off.

Usually kitty litters are a mixture of both sodium and calcium bentonite.

Ed

 

[Jason]

I never sent mine through a screen and I think it is not needed if you add minimal amount of water, just get it to start clumping. I let mine dry as is and broke the larger chunks apart with my hand, before I used the acrylic fortifier.

The key is to allow microfauna to start to colonize and make cavities before the clay breaks down. It really does not matter how perfect you make it, because it will turn to mud after a while anyway, unless you use too much fortifier (which is defeating the purpose, you want the microfauna to be able to uptake the nutrients). If you want firm clay chunks that never break apart use the fired infield stuff.

 

[nish07]

If it's all going to turn to mud, why don't I add something like infield conditioner (mixed with the baked clay) to allow for some areas for the microfauna to get to.

-Nish

 

[Jason]

If it's all going to turn to mud, why don't I add something like infield conditioner (mixed with the baked clay) to allow for some areas for the microfauna to get to.

-Nish

That was kind of my plan, I just wonder how it would settle out. Would all the "made clay" wash to the bottom, leaving the infield conditioner at the top ? It is something to try I think.

 

[Ed]

If it's all going to turn to mud, why don't I add something like infield conditioner (mixed with the baked clay) to allow for some areas for the microfauna to get to.

-Nish

I'm not sure why people think it is all going to turn to mud.. I have an test drip wall that has been set up and running now for several years without any stability issues.
It sure hasn't settled to the botton of the tank and has been well colonized by mosses (I took the ferns out as they were overgrowing the system) and the bromeliad is spreading across it as well.

In addition, I have several different clay variations set up in over false bottoms for months now and have not had it seep through the bottom of the false bottom (this is a red art clay and bentonite mixture). One of the variations is simply red art clay on top of a thin (like two pieces thick) pea gravel over the screen and then on top of that the clay mixture. Water does pass through as I made a air gap between the bottom of the false bottom and the top of the water level (before it drains out the bulkhead) and I can see it drip through.

Ed

 

[ChrisK]

People could probably get a good idea by looking at Matt's gallery on frognet

 

[tonying]

I've produced a batch using a modified version of Matt's recipe. I started a new topic about it, you can read it here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...m/forum/parts-construction/38755-experiences-slightly-modified-soil-recipe.html

 

[bbrock]

My original clay soil has been in action for over 3 years now so I thought I maybe a little update was in order. Overall the stuff has held up well but I think there is room for improvement. It still drains mist water off quickly but the structure has broken down noticeably indicating that fungi and fauna are not building structure as quickly as it is breaking down. This vivarium gets misted 5 times a day and I suspect that may be just too much water draining through to develop a nice crumb texture. But still, it is my favorite substrate I have used so far despite the imperfection. Another thing I've noticed is that the soil fauna seems to be more sensitive to reduction in leaf litter with this substrate. I got really lazy over the last year and let the leaf litter deplete quite a bit a few times. I noticed a crash in soil fauna which may be also realated to the decrease in pore space as the texture has broken down. I have recently begun "feeding" the soil more by adding a variety of fruit and vegetable scraps from time to time as well as keeping the leaf litter in order. I think feeding clay based soils may be an important component to get the most from them.

There are a few ways I think we could improve this type of soil. One would be to add a stable aggregate to improve drainage. Infield filler might be the ticket. I still have vivaria with cheap kitty litter that have been running 12 years now with no change in texture. I also think my original recipe may be too conservative on acrylic fortifier. I think in future batches I will try adding the fortifier to the wetting water rather than just spraying it on the surface of the dried particles. I think you could still get by with fairly low doses of fortifier but by adding it to the water, you would get better penetration and likely form a more stable aggregate. It would be nice to be able to test CEC at different doses of fortifier to see if there is a threshold where the fortifier seals off the clay so completely that CEC is lost.

 

[nish07]

With the amount of clay I need to fill so many vivs I was considering using more infield conditioner for drainage at the bottom. With Brent's recent post, I got an idea.

I was thinking of making a thin 1/2" drainage layer of infield conditioner. With two separate layers, I could make a checkered arrangement (roughly) of patches of conditioner next to patches of clay. Say, 1" layer that looked like a rough checkerboard. Over this layer I could alternate so directly over the infield conditioner, I could use clay and over the clay I could use conditioner (reverse the checkerboard arrangement). At the top of these two layers I could spread a thin layer of conditioner (1/8") and over that a 1/2-3/4" layer of baked clay. It would make the baked clay easy to remove and replace if things broke down while underneath there would be plenty of areas of calcined clay dispersed between baked clay for the microfauna to get to.

-Nish

 

[Ed]

It would be nice to be able to test CEC at different doses of fortifier to see if there is a threshold where the fortifier seals off the clay so completely that CEC is lost.

When I spoke to my dad about this, he wasn't sure about the CEC (since in his quote we were trying stuff with the acrylic that is untested to his knowledge (for those who are curious as to why I would consult him, he used to be a bigwig in a polymer and paint R&D division before he retired) but thought that this probably wouldn't happen until you added enough to basically prevent it from reacting with the water (water proofing, now that has apparently been done with clays in some R&D as he has some comments on that aspect but that is a lot more than we want from it...)

Ed

 

[skylsdale]

My substrate (as per Brent's recipe) has been running for over a year and a half at this point, and as I've said before, the structure has broken down and coagulated quite a bit since I first put it in. However, it does still drain well (worm tunnels probably help) and I have to agree with Brent: regardless of its "failings," it's still my favorite substrate.

Another thing I've noticed is that the soil fauna seems to be more sensitive to reduction in leaf litter with this substrate. I got really lazy over the last year and let the leaf litter deplete quite a bit a few times. I noticed a crash in soil fauna which may be also realated to the decrease in pore space as the texture has broken down. I have recently begun "feeding" the soil more by adding a variety of fruit and vegetable scraps from time to time as well as keeping the leaf litter in order. I think feeding clay based soils may be an important component to get the most from them.

I've noticed this same thing as well--over the last few months I haven't been adding as much leaf litter and I've noticed a decline in microfauna as well. However, I also have more frogs in their than I have in the past, so it might be getting consumed more than usual. Regardless of how little fauna I think is in there, I'm always amazed when I turn over some leaves or check down by the surface of the soil how many critters are still crawling around in there.

One would be to add a stable aggregate to improve drainage. Infield filler might be the ticket.

I'm still unsure about this. I've been using the Turface medium for about a year now. It makes me nervous with larger frogs: my auratus seem to consume it fairly regularly and I've found it in their feces. It is very sharp-edged and I worry about it doing some sort of internal damage. For smaller species it probably isn't a problem as it is too large for them to easily consume with prey items. However, if the infeild conditioner particles can be bound up and secured with the other clay into "super particles"...that might be a different story.

I also think my original recipe may be too conservative on acrylic fortifier. I think in future batches I will try adding the fortifier to the wetting water rather than just spraying it on the surface of the dried particles. I think you could still get by with fairly low doses of fortifier but by adding it to the water, you would get better penetration and likely form a more stable aggregate.

I'm about to make another batch using some local soil and I'm going to try including the fortifier with the wetting water as well--spraying it didn't seem to do much for me. Regardless, I can officially say that I am now 100% organic substrate free! All my tanks now have some form of soil or clay type substrate in them with a heavy load/layer of leaf litter, which I think is much healthier for the frogs and the vivarium as a whole.