after seeing his set up and trying to combine with some of mine I decided it was best not to use it with a water fall or drip wall.I've been using pond plant soil that I found a home depot(a cheap version of flourite).Unfortunately the pond soil,which is nothing but shattered clay fragments, doesnt give you the microfuana build up that the moist redart clay does.A misting system seems to work best for the clay substrate.

 

I mixed up clay substrate (bentonite) about 75/25 with peat as a trial and it holds up well to a drip system as long as you don't let it dry out.

Ed

 

There are a couple of efforts ongoing to try to replicate a more "rainforest like" soil.

I think the key thing to note which is a big thing I am fighting is that most normal substrates do not handle the extended damp conditions of our tanks. They break down over time.

At least for larger collections or well misted ones I am thinking that even fine aquarium gravel would be better than some of the common substrates, but don't quote me on that.

I am going to test a couple of different things and see how they do over time as I think a number of other people are as well.

 

Is the purpose of the redart clay to keep the substrate from breaking down and needing to be replaced? Or does the redart clay contain minerals/trace elements that are beneficial to the frogs?

 

I think the clay in general is for drainage, but some of the "soil geeks" would need to explain the real reason.

 

.....does the redart clay contain minerals/trace elements that are beneficial to the frogs?

I dont know if there is a direct benefit to the frogs but the plants seem to appreciate it.There is so much clay in the soil around here that I decided to try it out in my tank with a layer of cypress/cocofiber/moss over that followed by leaf litter.I still prefer the bentonite,but I dont know where to find it down here. It has a waxy consistency that holds better in saturated enviorments.I'm still looking for a better way to bind the clay to the wall, It had interesting texture to it but it wasn't able to withstand the moisture and fell down.

 

Yes there are benefits for the frogs, check out the posts on soils by Brent... one of the benefits talked about was the higher calcium levels found in substrate microfauna that were being fed on by froglets in a tank produced by Matt Mirabello (check out his thread for more) and how Brent does not have calcium problems in tank raised pumilio froglets on his soil substrate.

 

The question I have is can the calcium levels be adjusted in other soils with some of the same methods?

I just ordered some of this to try, and plan to add some laterite and some other things to it.

I am also trying one of the suggested clay based soils, but currently do not have any pumilio to get a true test. I may have to break down and get some escudos to test with.

 

Yes the calcium level of the soil can be adjusted but you have to know the calcium content first...
Also you have to have soil invertebrates which are going to be in the soil for the frogs to ingest...

Ed

 

Guess the link would help...
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/P ... 004+113555

Interesting Ed and Im trying a couple of things. At least my current thinking is to use one thing for pumilio and something else for the none egg feeders. Having had poor luck with pumilio until now I am preparing a larger tank for another shot at it. I am hoping to use a "Brent based soil".

If I had to guess at my problems they would go like this in order:
- too small of a tank
- poor substrate which broke down over time and became infested with mites.

 

Flora Base, interesting, let us know how that works out. I just ordered some Fluorite to give that a try.

 

Has anybody bought a large bag of the redart clay and wants to sell a small quantity of it?

 

We just received a 1000 lb shipment of tropical Laterite clay and will have it for sale on our website very soon. It will be offered in powder and crushed forms. Pricing will be .50 per lb and we can fit 5 lbs in a 1 gallon bag. Shipping is USPS priority flat rate box. Two 1 gallon bags can be shipped in one box to save on shipping. We have personally tested this product for over a year and it is currently being used in all 60 + of our tanks with very good results.


We do have both for sale.

 

Interesting - what % are you using in soil?

I use ABG mix, so I'm not sure that this would be a proper additive for it, but I'm very interested in Brent/Matt's view on the soil world.

s

 

So why would one choose Redart vs Lateralite (sp?)?

 

So why would one choose Redart vs Lateralite (sp?)?

I'm interested in the answer to this as well before I buy one or the other.

From previous discussions it sounds like the calcium level in the substrate is what people are concerned about. Does one or the other contain more calcium? Are there other advantages to using one over the other?

THANKS!!!

 

I use ABG mix, so I'm not sure that this would be a proper additive for it, but I'm very interested in Brent/Matt's view on the soil world.

If you're thinking of the clay in terms of using it as an additive in more organic substrates, I think you're missing the philosophy behind it (I'm not picking on you at all, Scott--just pointing out the idea of using it as an additive, which has popped up in nearly every thread about soil). Organic substrates are useful for growing plants. A clay-based substrate is about helping bridge the gaps in the ecological cycle in our vivs and the overall health and well-being of the frogs contained in them.

Organic substrates break down into muck and lose their structure over time. Clay-based aggregates hold their structure, providing a permanent habitat for microfauna to inhabit and repopulate. Adding aggregate to an organic substrate defeats the purpose, because you eventually end up with clay particles surrounded by dense muck--there isn't any suitable space provided for inverts.

Dealing with clay-based soil is a complete shift in mindset from working with organic substrates. I don't see that the two can be cohesively integrated.

 

Thanks! That's why I asked... I've followed it, but not as closely as I could (or will).

s

 

I know tree fern (loose) is an organic substrate, but it seems to hold up well over time for me. Would making a mixture of that and the clay still defeat the purpose of using the clay?

KRM, I too would like to hear more about any comments you might have on laterite vs. redart, thanks.

 

So why would one choose Redart vs Lateralite (sp?)?

I'm interested in the answer to this as well before I buy one or the other.

From previous discussions it sounds like the calcium level in the substrate is what people are concerned about. Does one or the other contain more calcium? Are there other advantages to using one over the other?

THANKS!!!

I belive you use the redart as an unfired clay, it will basicly turn to glop in the bottom of the tank.
Laterite is fired, and will not turn to glop, and will provide drainage for ever.

 

I belive you use the redart as an unfired clay, it will basicly turn to glop in the bottom of the tank.
Laterite is fired, and will not turn to glop, and will provide drainage for ever.

If I remember Brent's post correctly he mixes up the redart clay powder with water as if you were going to use it to throw a clay pot. Then he lays it out as a 1/4" slab to completely dry out. Then he smashes it into smaller pieces to mix into his substrate. I don't think he has a problem with it then turning into glop in the bottom of the tank.

Hopefully Brent will pick up on this post and give us his input.

 

That would work so long as you don't spray the tank heavily on a regular basis...
But unfired clay, exposed to moisture, will turn to muck.
Trust me, I grew up with clay.

 

I was told fluorite is the one that's fired and even though laterite is sold in a granular form for aquarists it isn't fired and will not hold it's form once wet. Not to doubt the above info, just trying to get to the bottom of what I was told and where the misinformation lies.

 

If it can't turn to some level of "muck" (although this does depend on drainage...) then it is hard for the substrate to present in/on the invertebrates to be ingested by the frogs... When dealing with clay in some of the tests I have made, you can actually sculpt areas (peaks) in the substrate that are dry to the touch on the top... The lower levels will turn to some levels of muck...
When dealing with these items in the terraria you hydrate the substrate and sculpt it into place and then let it dry for about 24-36 hours so it can "set" into place. Once it has set it is pretty stable but if you let it really dry out and then wet it, you have to let it set again. In an enclosure at work, I have a clay/peat admixture covered with a live moss, holding a rock waterfall together over which the unrestricted outflow of a magnum 350 runs...

People also need to understand that you need a variety of soil invertebrates so the frogs can try to meet thier nutritional needs by modifying thier diet (as wild frogs do....) Just having isopods and springtails is probably going to be an insufficient variety....

Ed

 

To answer the ?? on Laterite & Redart -

Laterite & Redart are both made from a red soil found in tropical and subtropical regions that has been leached of soluble minerals, aluminum hydroxides and silica. They are both rich in iron, which is an important nutrient for plants, and also gives it that rain forest floor red look.

Most all Laterite & Redart clay is currently mined from different parts of the US. You can find Redart in most pottery supply houses. Laterite can be a bit harder to find and comes from just a few specific places throughout the US.

Laterite will have a brighter and richer red look over the Redart clay due to the slightly higher iron content.

Both versions of the clay come in raw pulverized powders that have not been fired. When fired, they lose their benefits needed for making a clay soil. It would be the same as using crushed clay pots or Hydroton.

When we prepare the crushed clay, we use a mixture of 30lbs of Aragonite sand to 50lbs of Laterite.

Why do we use Aragonite sand?

1. It gives the clay structure and strength.

2. The calcium slowly leaches into the soil with watering and age. This provides a direct source of high calcium for the soil invertebrates which the froglets feed on, making them healthier and their survival rate higher.

We then mix the clay with water to a consistency of thick mud and place it on a hemp canvas for two weeks or until dry. It is then folded and crushed to a size of 20mm and smaller.

You can mix the clay with any type of sand, peat, coco, or sphagnum with good results. Just make sure the substrate is not over watered. We usually only water 20 seconds every other day, just enough to wet the plants.

Sprinkling the clay powder over the previous soil also works well. When watered, it too will work its way into the soil.

I believe most people will find mixing, drying, crushing and sprinkling it over their previous soil a lot easer to do.

Here is a photo at one month so you can see what the soil looks like without the crushed clay. The mix we use for this setup is Redart clay, Cocogrow, collected forest soil, and peat/sphagnum moss. It is mixed and then placed on top of a 2" layer of Higromite with black screen in between the two.

Hope this can help in any way.

Kevin