pretty sure the egg yolk thing has been done years ago. by one of the old timers.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong Robb is a oldtimer and is the first to feed egg yoke to frogs. That's where I believe I heard of it years ago. I heard second hand someone having good success feeding yolk with a mixture of vitamins powder.

 

Yes, you're correct. I mentioned his egg yolk experiments simply to draw comparisons between now and the past.

 

I am newly returned to the hobby after a lengthy absence and a new member here on the boards.

Generally speaking, I enjoy reading posts, seeing the great work by others through their photos or articles and when I can, letting others know of my successes and failures.

In all, I find people here helpful.

As with all societies, groups, clubs, there will always be politics and controversy. Trust me, I have belonged to more than a few societies and even headed one or two.

That being said, sometimes it is best to pass on commenting on something if it gets one hot-under-the-collar.

Locally, there are few froggers or few that I know of. You folks here are my community and I look forward to more years of conversation.

Off to my local Orchid Society meeting! Chat soon.

 

Locally, there are few froggers or few that I know of.

Luke, there are plenty of froggers in Toronto. Shoot me a PM when you get back from your meet.

 

Long before Robb tried an egg yolk diet,NAIB and myself and maybe some other tried it after hearing about some Hobbiest in Europe having some success. We did not, I remember NAIB had a two year old histo tadpole that look about five weeks old. I then tried using other frog eggs, with no luck. Then had some success with other dart fry eggs. Jenny Pramuk PhD. Published a paper using some of my data, probably back in the mid-nineties...

 

Hey Ian,

It looks like the issue could be due to chicken yolks having the wrong lipid profiles and that the tadpoles are assimilating at least some of the lipids directly.
There are a couple of references linked here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...m/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/88821-pumilio-tadpole-progression-pics.html#post785234

Ed

 

hmm TFH, Maybe that's where I saw the yolk thing. I was a long term subscriber and probably have that issue in my attic somewhere. Sorry did not mean to hijack this post about egg yolk.
I think the oldtimers mostly came from zoos and gardens and were studying dart frogs. Then instead of bull frogs in the local pet shops they were filled with dart frogs cheap. Thus the hobby begins.

 

Spaff--with all due respect...I guess I joined DB about the same time as you...and I knew NOTHING about no damn frogs...all I knew was someone at Lowes that I worked with in the plant dept. caught a frog and knew I had a paladarium...so insisted I take the damn thing.....turned out to be a Cuban WC--- It is incalcuable how much I have learned, the patience that people have so generously shown for a true noob who really didn't retain what an amphibian was from the biology class umpteen years ago...and for the dedicated people who try so hard to be patient with the new posters who do not access the stickies...hell, I didn't know what they were, or how to access any damn thing... In short, yes the drama for the stealing of frogs, the bad deals, the overpriced frogs...you name it--has affected some of the "old-timers" and I can truly understand the frustrations of posting over and over: READ THE DAMN FORUMS... but it has led me here--to make a post explaining that meeting the DB MADS people at Roman's and George's to exchange the good will that is still exists...and the dedicated scientists like Ed who challenge questionable practices..."show me the facts"..there are so many members who get tired, then something happens, and they dive back in. So many plants, so many frogs, so much to learn...it is just such a resource...cutting glass (thanks Pumilo...)....special effects (Dendro Dave and company)...Plants--Antone...the list is very long.... This obsession to breed and sell the most expensive frog is like any other product...and will burn our.....the cream always rises to the top...

 

Huh, pretty sure this thread wasnt intended to be a discussion of feeder egg substitution methods and the history

 

How can you establish if there has been progress if you exclude the history of the hobby? If there isn't a bar of what has been done then you can never know if there has been improvement. Attempting to exclude any history from this discussion should be considered a problem.

On a second note, incorrect assumptions or facts should always be corrected whenever possible as otherwise you are directly contributing to the perpetuation of bad information.

Some comments

Ed

 

I'm pretty sure it wasn't indltended for snide comments that offer nothing to the discussion either.


Back on track, I do find that I enjoy reading older threads a lot more than the newer stuff lately. It seems like there used to be so much more exchange of ideas and camaraderie. I also definitely agree that this is turning more into a "how many rare species/morphs can I claim in my signature" sect of the hobby.

 

For me the disappointment is that the frogs that were popular when I first got into the hobby several years ago very few hobbyists care about any more. It's always about getting the next NEW frog into your collection.

I have to admit it happens to me as well, but I do still have my first two thumb species, standards and the Tor Linbo line of taras, in my collection.

 

Changes come and go. Newbies post the most. The most experienced say the least, (unless asked). No-one uses the search feature before posting inane oft repeated questions. Been in this hobby LONG before forums became the fodder ground for insecure people flinging back handed insults and sarcastic comments. But for the most part, I would say there hasnt been alot of change, mostly status quo. I think what it REALLY is, is the longer someone is present on these boards, the more boring they become, not because content has dramatically changed, but because they've read all the good threads, searched for all the ones that interest them, and finally they are left waiting and waiting for new interesting stuff to come up. So, its mostly perception.

 

There is probably more fluff then there used to be but the beginners are still getting knowledge from the board. I re entered the hobby about 8 years ago and learned a great deal more then I did 25yrs ago in the hobby.
Everybody is probably guilty of wanting that rare frog in there collection. That said I love my auratus and azureus.

 

Pdfcrazy: did you mean to post: " the more boring they become", or did you mean to say : "bored"... Bored, yes...that's when--if you can stand one more post you say: READ THE FORUMS....and direct the OP to the appropriate place. But, like probably most can pretty much assess where a poster is going when they immediately want to know about how to set up a breeding program...or where to buy a proven pair regardless of the cost... So a purist, or someone who is already selling does not respond...com'on--you know who you are... are we trying to educate, expose, and draw in hobbyists/educators/researchers..etc. --if that is what DB is about--well, maybe a different approach is called for. At the Repticon Shows, there is a great opportunity to let preschoolers in on all this...there should be seminars at those gathering places...everywhere that there is an opportunity to let people know about THIS forum and DD--we have to let people in on this obsession

 

JudyS! Which Lowe's? I was the Lawn and Landscape Pro at 2493. That was up until March 28th of this year.

Always fun to have herpetofauna coming in on plant shipments.

 

Westminster,MD--oh how funny...and I was up in Pennsylvania on a mobile phone in a garden nursery trying to tell my boss and an assistant that I knew nothing about frogs!! You never do know what doors are presented in life to explore....and am so gratified at this point...love the screen name....

 

Thanks JudyS!

We were one of the first 6 stores to open in Canada. As I stated in an earlier post, I only wish I had all the selection of frogs, plants and materials that you have down south of the border.

Who knows, maybe we can get a Froggers Club going up here.

 

hey....check out the MADS thread...there are a couple of you Northern Neighbors who are coming down in March to Scott Menigoz's for a MADS get-together....

 

understandable...there will always be jerks or ego driven people in any endeavor...I used to be into racehorses so know how that goes...but the DB ers who really want to learn will eventually see through people like him...trust me...and the people who raise and want to share will prevail/

 

Like in any community, you will get the good and the bad. Or in this case, the smart and the not-so-smart.

That is why we need to help educate and be somewhat tolerant of those ever reoccurring questions.

The truth is, governments and scientists are not the major contributors to conservation. The best possible future, any future, for these frogs lies in the hands of hobbyists like all of you.

I'm in Canada and it seems like a SAR (Species-At-Risk) Recovery Program entails spending thousands of dollars on a scientist to go out and count that we only have 212 of a species and it needs to be recovered....but wait, we are going to let nature run its course! There are no plans to collect seeds or eggs and grow ex-situ, reintroduce or protect habit. The people protecting endangered or threatened species here, are retired software programmers and guerilla gardeners who are genuinely passionate about nature and her treasures. And I say this as a biologist recognizing the shortcomings of the scientific community in taking action to help SARs.

 

The truth is, governments and scientists are not the major contributors to conservation. The best possible future, any future, for these frogs lies in the hands of hobbyists like all of you.

Only if the hobbyists are directly supporting or funding a research program in the field or a in-situ breeding project or a properly setup and managed an ex-situ project (which automatically excludes hobbyist owned animals).

Captive breeding in the absence of a program to protect the appropriate ecosystem is not conservation and will never be conservation. None of the animals in the hobbyists hands are suitable for reintroduction or repatriation due to multiple factors ranging from adaptation to captivity to the potential exposure to novel pathogens and parasites to a number of other factors.

See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...ervation/65926-wild-caught-vs-captive-bred-conservation-efforts.html#post576511

Some comments

Ed

 

yikes......

 

off the egg yolk topic, and talking about the first part of this.. I have only been in the hobby for 3 years I still consider myself new here. I have taken a great deal of advice from people and passed on whatever knowledge I had to help people who were a little newer than me.

What I see lately and somewhat with a handful of locals around me is that people are buying "higher and higher end" frogs not because they like them but in the hopes to turn a profit.. more and more people are looking for pairs to make a "quick buck". part of the excitement for me was purchasing a trio of froglets/juvis and playing the waiting game. I found it to be more exciting that the frogs I raised from a young age grew up and laid eggs, and part of the excitement was learning how to keep those eggs viable..

there is an overwhelming sense of greed and "know it all syndrome" in the hobby and its sad to me. somebody can purchase a nice pair of frogs breed them and have a convo with somebody who knows something and all of a sudden they are breeders and experts.

If you have the money buy what you want but there is no harm in being considerate to people and checking your ego every now and then. I have also noticed and overwhelming sense of "saltiness" from "veterans" in this group or facebook groups or even in person with people who don't like to deal with "newbie" questions, or will actually argue a difference in opinion. I know a gooooooood amount of people who will not post questions on this page because of the nasty remarks people are so quick to give and I dont think its fair.

 

.
I have also noticed and overwhelming sense of "saltiness" from "veterans" in this group or facebook groups or even in person with people who don't like to deal with "newbie" questions, or will actually argue a difference in opinion. I know a gooooooood amount of people who will not post questions on this page because of the nasty remarks people are so quick to give and I dont think its fair.

Are they afraid of the comments or afraid of having to defend an assumption or position?
If a person is posting something as fact then they should be willing to explain or defend that fact and people shouldn't take that as an attack. If there people just accept "facts" as they are put on the board then nothing will advance as people will be given incorrect information.

Some comments

Ed

 

OK, I feel that I need to step up and again post as (if Robb is an old timer, this makes me a fossil, being he was my student back in 1996) Zach and Ed, my post was just for history and was not intended to direct the thread. I am aware of all the history and then some. Ed, if your interest we should talk. Anyway, this thread seems to be exactly what Zach (Spaff) was trying to bring to all our attention and unfortunately is now in print!

 

^This.

I said several years ago - while many got excited that the appeal and practice of keeping Dendrobatids was growing - that it would change the hobby. Most said it would just make things better...I wasn't so sure. If anything, it's different. If anything, it's become like any other hobby full of prescriptive step-by-step dogmas and personalities and people showing off collections to measure themselves against others.

And there are those - old timers or gods or whatever you want to call them - for whom this hobby wasn't about notoriety or seeing how many 'Cool frogs, bro!' they could get in a thread. What resulted in their pursuit of successfully keeping these animals were actual friendships and the unexpected evolution of a sort of community. And as the hobby has grown, this has become diluted...and what has replaced it is not what they know or even desire. And so they continue practicing their hobby in the ways they want to, and in relation with the people they want to engage with. For those who have entered this hobby in the last few years, they don't necessarily understand all the trail-and-error some of these folks went through just to keep these things alive...just to breed them...just to breed enough of them to get some of the offspring to someone else to keep them going. There is now an INDUSTRY forming around these little frogs: ExoTerra enclosures designed for little amphibians, various products for more naturalistic type tanks, etc. This is a relatively new phenomenon in the Dendrobatid hobby, but it shows that it has become popular enough that herp hobbies see a possibility for profit. This, again, impacts and influences the hobby...and what may have started as a hobby for people who were willing to put in time and money and energy and problem-solvingn fortitude, is now something the average Joe can just walk right into and start up. Jeez...you can get into this hobby now by going to Petco. That was unimaginable when I get started.

For me, this is one of the importance of shows. And while people type thread after thread about how to make them more 'successful'...well, the success of a show isn't just in how much money someone makes or how many frogs they sell. A large part of it, for me, is the strengthening of a bond between people I largely only interact with online. It's about staying up late into the night and having drinks with people, swapping stories and plant cuttings or maybe gifting a few frogs to someone at the end of the event who hasn't tried that type before – there is a sort of generosity and generatively that exists in certain parts of this hobby that is expressed and experienced at some of these shows, and for those who don't want to make the effort or sacrifice to be part of them (but would rather complain that it's not being held in their backyard), they are missing out on one of the more unique and valuable aspects of this hobby, in my opinion.

Forums don't cultivate this type of community. Actually, forums create their own little micro-communities, and I think if you spend too much time on them, you can end up with a skewed understanding of how the hobby - as a whole and on a daily basis - exists outside of the limited universe of the forum.

 

I liked and thanked Spaff' for his post. (Skylsdale's too)...

But... (Muahhahahha...)

Honestly still see all that good stuff still here (in one form or another). Most of us whether we participate in the drama or not get tired of it from time to time...

But I think much of what happens here that we may not like, is a necessary evil. The arguments, the back and forth are exactly what has created and allows this culture and hobby that we love to exist, but also adapt and endure.

There are those that just want to have fun, and a free exchange of ideas, but because this is fun and matters to us, people are going to argue. A forum IMO should be a place of tolerance and respect, but a forum of peace and love will never exist... and arguably shouldn't exist if it intends to get anything done or protect what the community has.

None of us exist in a vacuum, realize what you do or don't do will effect others. Even if this is all just for fun for you... it does mean more then that to others, and they deserve a degree of respect, and sometimes that means not doing something that may put what they have at risk, not just saying "I understand where you are coming from".

Change is inevitable, but when and how that change occurs is within our means to at least guide if not control, and a degree of responsibility and accountability rests on all of us, regardless if we want it nor not... or why we are here.

(Again, and again, and again... because often I don't think we all truly realize the implications as much as should)...

"We do not exist in a vacuum".

Understanding that, letting it inform your words/actions... can do wonders for everyone.

And while I'm not sure I agree with everything in his post, or feel there may be conflicts, or maybe that not all of it is possible, or the correct action...

It absolutely needed to be said (Skylsdale's too)

So that is why I "like" and thank them for it, (Plus they seems like cool guys, and they care... Plus Zardoz will inevitably cross paths with the mods from time to time)

 

Ian, you look pretty good for being a fossil and you can still swing with the best (and youngest) of them. I actually appreciated the history post you added. It was something I never knew, and that post provided information that I'd bet the majority of readers didn't know prior. If it would have directed this thread further into a history lesson of the hobby, that would have been fine. Most of us (the non-fossils) would have learned something new.

Dave, I'm not saying we as a hobby all need to sit in a circle around a campfire and sing to one another. Discussions are good and disagreements aren't necessarily bad. What is bad are the disrespectful, back-biting, unnecessary comments that are often the result of sitting behind a keyboard. I'll admit that I've been in the middle of many discussions both heated and otherwise, and I haven't come out of one feeling negatively towards the other person (and I hope they feel the same way).

 

Dave, I'm not saying we as a hobby all need to sit in a circle around a campfire and sing to one another. Discussions are good and disagreements aren't necessarily bad. What is bad are the disrespectful, back-biting, unnecessary comments that are often the result of sitting behind a keyboard. I'll admit that I've been in the middle of many discussions both heated and otherwise, and I haven't come out of one feeling negatively towards the other person (and I hope they feel the same way).

Can't disagree with any of that, although I actually would be for more camping trips!

I think part of the problem is people will have an argument and decide that other person is so wrong that they actually aren't worth respecting anymore, and while maybe sometimes that is justified... all to often we just "go there", when it isn't.

Here is an example of what I think is the more reasonable view (Like all of mine! ...LoL ):

Recently got into a fairly heated debate, some of what was said on botb sides could be considered as "shots taken", justified or not, and regardless who is right overall...I don't hate that guy, I just disagree on those issues.

If he starts pumping out hundreds of hybrids, lying and generally being deceptive, practicing sleaze marketing and pushing a BS pseudoscience backed agenda to make $$$(Like a certain someone)... Then maybe I'll cross into the realm of "really really stronge dislike".

...but as of now, it is just a difference of opinion. No biggie and best wishes.

How often is taking it further then that, really worth burning that bridge?

 

Dear Brothers,

I see people post all the time about dislike for answering questions over and over. IMHO this just highlights the need for a lot of work on the sickies and articles. I am pretty new but I often find that digging through very long threads to find information just doesn't work very well, and it gets worse the newer you are.

If someone asks a question you feel should be answered already, go dig up the answer, if you cannot link directly to a concise answer (IMO in a single post) then we should probably create an article where someone who is sick of repeating it, compiles the information from many posts, says it once and then its done. From there on out a link answers the question, if something changes or is not clear people fix it up. And the positive outcome would be that some people could work together and it would be a great team building exercise. It is a little ironic that this post seems to claim that 4 years ago things were developing, and I noticed that 4-5 years ago was about the last time any major work was done on the stickies. Its like the admins just froze time, and words became law written in stone.

Also let's not forget that text is often interpreted in the worst way possible.
Don't Type at Me Like That! Email and Emotions | Psychology Today
I wish I had a better link but this is the gist of it, if I write something more people are more likely to interpret it as me being a dick than what my actual emotions are. So it helps if both parties, the writer and the reader consider that and try to write and read more pleasantly.

Sincerely PubFiction

wow see how the first and last two words took the edge off. I guess people had to think a lot more when they wrote back in the days of snail mail and they developed a system to avoid misunderstandings that would be catastrophic when a soldiers wife left him after a poorly written letter and he had no idea for 4 months.