For those that have actually tested this out... what is the MAXIMUM size hole you can have in screen/mesh (thinking in terms of vents in the tank) that will reliably contain fruit flies and keep the tank FF proof? I have seen both 0.75mm holes and 1mm holes and would like to use the 1mm but am a little concerned that this might be big enough for them to slide right through. What are your experiences?
sbreland
In my experience the whole problem becomes moot if you feed just enough that the frogs get to the flies before they have a chance to make it to freedom. Though in the rare case that it happens, they always end up at my lights and fry.
I don't know the answer to this, but I am curious as to why you'd want to maximize your screen-hole size. 
Why not just use some no-see-um mesh, and not worry about it? If it's passive ventilation you want to maximize, wouldn't making a wider vent be playing a little safer in terms of escapees?
Why not just use some no-see-um mesh, and not worry about it? If it's passive ventilation you want to maximize, wouldn't making a wider vent be playing a little safer in terms of escapees?
Guys, I gotta say I'm all for this. A larger hole in the mesh, makes a very big difference in how much air can flow through. A very big difference. Remember, I've built thousands of screens in my career.
Serial, yes, you could simply put in a larger vent, if that's possible. Sometimes, you have to work with what you've got. Sometimes, it may not be feasible. Perhaps his screen was designed for the top, and blocking the light may be an issue. If it happens to be on the front of the viv, a bigger vent blocks more of your view.
As far as playing it safer goes, fabric no-see-um is much lighter duty, much more able to tear, and much more susceptible the UVB damage.
Anyway, while I have not measured air flow, I have a pretty good idea how much air a screen blocks. I believe a looser mesh can double your airflow.
Further, your standard no-see-um mesh is not very well protected against UVB damage. Window screens are made with UV in mind, and should have a much longer lifespan than no-see-um mesh. Getting a 10 year lifespan out of a screen, is not a problem, and that is in full sun, rain, and wind. Viv conditions are much less severe.
Yes, stainless steel mesh would last even longer, but I've never seen it in the size mesh I like.
Sbreland, good question. Keep asking the right questions! The right questions help advance our hobby. Always strive for better. Good enough should never be good enough. Refusing to accept, "good enough", is what brought our hobby to where it is today. Once we accept, "good enough", then our hobby begins stagnating. If my peers, the people that taught me frogging, had accepted "good enough", vents would be more expensive, and rare. They would still be dropping to spindly leg syndrome. We'd still be losing frogs to Sticky Tongue Syndrome, formerly thought to be Short Tongue Syndrome. Obligates would still be the stuff of legends, with very few having any success at all.
The screen mesh that I currently use, and that I used on all my vivs when I was much more involved with the hobby, is this.
Super Screen Tiny Mesh 20 x 20.
I always got mine through Metro Screenworks out of Denver, CO. They do sell through Amazon, but only have large rolls listed right now. If you contact them directly, they should be able to help you with the smallest roll they carry. They do sell direct to the public, and they do ship. I have no idea what their minimum order is.
The first picture is industry standard screen mesh. The second picture is what I use, Super Screen Tiny Mesh 20 x 20.
I leave you with a final note about how appropriate I find this mesh for our specific uses. If I could manufacture my own, with any size mesh hole that I wanted, I wouldn't change a thing. My choice would be 20 x 20. It's the perfect size to keep back a fruit fly, while letting the maximum amount of air through.
When I screen my fans, I want airflow, airflow, and airflow. I really don't care if a few flies get chopped now and then. I use standard, full flow, fiberglass window screen for fans, and that still cuts your flow down by more than half.
Serial, yes, you could simply put in a larger vent, if that's possible. Sometimes, you have to work with what you've got. Sometimes, it may not be feasible. Perhaps his screen was designed for the top, and blocking the light may be an issue. If it happens to be on the front of the viv, a bigger vent blocks more of your view.
As far as playing it safer goes, fabric no-see-um is much lighter duty, much more able to tear, and much more susceptible the UVB damage.
Anyway, while I have not measured air flow, I have a pretty good idea how much air a screen blocks. I believe a looser mesh can double your airflow.
Further, your standard no-see-um mesh is not very well protected against UVB damage. Window screens are made with UV in mind, and should have a much longer lifespan than no-see-um mesh. Getting a 10 year lifespan out of a screen, is not a problem, and that is in full sun, rain, and wind. Viv conditions are much less severe.
Yes, stainless steel mesh would last even longer, but I've never seen it in the size mesh I like.
Sbreland, good question. Keep asking the right questions! The right questions help advance our hobby. Always strive for better. Good enough should never be good enough. Refusing to accept, "good enough", is what brought our hobby to where it is today. Once we accept, "good enough", then our hobby begins stagnating. If my peers, the people that taught me frogging, had accepted "good enough", vents would be more expensive, and rare. They would still be dropping to spindly leg syndrome. We'd still be losing frogs to Sticky Tongue Syndrome, formerly thought to be Short Tongue Syndrome. Obligates would still be the stuff of legends, with very few having any success at all.
The screen mesh that I currently use, and that I used on all my vivs when I was much more involved with the hobby, is this.
Super Screen Tiny Mesh 20 x 20.
I always got mine through Metro Screenworks out of Denver, CO. They do sell through Amazon, but only have large rolls listed right now. If you contact them directly, they should be able to help you with the smallest roll they carry. They do sell direct to the public, and they do ship. I have no idea what their minimum order is.
The first picture is industry standard screen mesh. The second picture is what I use, Super Screen Tiny Mesh 20 x 20.
I leave you with a final note about how appropriate I find this mesh for our specific uses. If I could manufacture my own, with any size mesh hole that I wanted, I wouldn't change a thing. My choice would be 20 x 20. It's the perfect size to keep back a fruit fly, while letting the maximum amount of air through.
When I screen my fans, I want airflow, airflow, and airflow. I really don't care if a few flies get chopped now and then. I use standard, full flow, fiberglass window screen for fans, and that still cuts your flow down by more than half.
Attachments
The same company also offers the same size mesh in the "Betterview" line. Avoid this one!! It has anti microbials embedded in it. Plus, it has a smaller diameter wire, which essentially makes the hole a bigger size, even though it is 20 x 20 mesh.
Do NOT use the Betterview screen mesh!
Do NOT use the Betterview screen mesh!
Hey guys,
Thanks Doug and all the rest. The reason I ask is because I am planning an application that does sort of limit the size of the vent in respects to "just enlarging the vent". It's kind of a Sherman vent, but different... will post about it when it gets done so others can see. I guess maybe I should have been a little clearer though... what I'm planning is a perforated metal sheet like these-
http://www.themeshcompany.com/produ...le---2mm-Triangular-Pitch---SS304-Grade---Perforated-Metal-Mesh-394.html#SID=86
In these particular things "size matters" (I know, that's what she said, lol) which is why I was wondering if anyone knew the right size. From what I've been looking at online I think the 1mm will work at holding back the flies... I think. This would give me maximal air flow while also still keeping flies in.
For the record though, this is about my 10th or 11th or so year involved with frogs and viv building but haven't really ever custom made a viv wth this stuff, just "screen mesh" but want a better looking solution.
Thanks Doug and all the rest. The reason I ask is because I am planning an application that does sort of limit the size of the vent in respects to "just enlarging the vent". It's kind of a Sherman vent, but different... will post about it when it gets done so others can see. I guess maybe I should have been a little clearer though... what I'm planning is a perforated metal sheet like these-
http://www.themeshcompany.com/produ...le---2mm-Triangular-Pitch---SS304-Grade---Perforated-Metal-Mesh-394.html#SID=86
In these particular things "size matters" (I know, that's what she said, lol) which is why I was wondering if anyone knew the right size. From what I've been looking at online I think the 1mm will work at holding back the flies... I think. This would give me maximal air flow while also still keeping flies in.
For the record though, this is about my 10th or 11th or so year involved with frogs and viv building but haven't really ever custom made a viv wth this stuff, just "screen mesh" but want a better looking solution.
IMO Pumilio is right, air flow is a concern.
Sbreland - look at this stat for your material:
Open Area 22.6% Open Area
That's pretty occluded. Pretty far from "maximal air flow" if that's of value to you.
Here's a link to an open area calculator for wire mesh:
Wire Cloth Calculators - Cleveland Wire Cloth
Assuming "20x20" was 20 openings to the inch, or each opening is .05", I input the Metro stuff's parameter values to the calculator.
Open area of the 20x20 is 62.99%
Or almost triple that of the stamped metal. So to get the same airflow to your animals and plants that the 20x20 stuff would offer, I believe you'd need to ~triple the surface area of your stamped-metal vent. But see below - I may be understating this a bit...you might need to ~ quadruple it.
Something to consider? Hope this is useful.
Perhaps Pumilio could confirm/refute the 20 openings per inch assumption I made. If my assumption is correct (I believe in his experience), then 0.05" (or 1.27 mm) will do the trick for you. Note though that his square holes (wire mesh) are going to have an area about 25% bigger than your round ones (stamped metal) - so perhaps you could get away with slightly larger round holes than 1.27mm. And thereby gain a bit on the open area stat, and not have to upsize your vent area so much.
Or you could find a nice-looking wire mesh? If that's not an oxymoron to you, ha ha.
cheers
Sbreland - look at this stat for your material:
Open Area 22.6% Open Area
That's pretty occluded. Pretty far from "maximal air flow" if that's of value to you.
Here's a link to an open area calculator for wire mesh:
Wire Cloth Calculators - Cleveland Wire Cloth
Assuming "20x20" was 20 openings to the inch, or each opening is .05", I input the Metro stuff's parameter values to the calculator.
Open area of the 20x20 is 62.99%
Or almost triple that of the stamped metal. So to get the same airflow to your animals and plants that the 20x20 stuff would offer, I believe you'd need to ~triple the surface area of your stamped-metal vent. But see below - I may be understating this a bit...you might need to ~ quadruple it.
Something to consider? Hope this is useful.
Perhaps Pumilio could confirm/refute the 20 openings per inch assumption I made. If my assumption is correct (I believe in his experience), then 0.05" (or 1.27 mm) will do the trick for you. Note though that his square holes (wire mesh) are going to have an area about 25% bigger than your round ones (stamped metal) - so perhaps you could get away with slightly larger round holes than 1.27mm. And thereby gain a bit on the open area stat, and not have to upsize your vent area so much.
Or you could find a nice-looking wire mesh? If that's not an oxymoron to you, ha ha.
cheers
By the way, in the industry, the least obtrusive screen color is well known to be black mesh.
Sounds funny, I know, but you can see through black mesh better than gray, silver, or any funky custom colored mesh. Hold up a piece of gray by a piece of black and look through them. There is actually a very noticable difference.
If you start paying attention while driving through neighborhoods, you'll start to notice that gray screens are also more noticeable than black screens, from the street.
Sounds funny, I know, but you can see through black mesh better than gray, silver, or any funky custom colored mesh. Hold up a piece of gray by a piece of black and look through them. There is actually a very noticable difference.
If you start paying attention while driving through neighborhoods, you'll start to notice that gray screens are also more noticeable than black screens, from the street.
Good info here! Now I want to replace the no-see um fabric I've been using. I can't seem to locate super screen in the 20x20 mesh. All I can find on the metro screen site is 16/14 and 17/20. I don't even see it listed on super screen's website??
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They do sell smaller amounts, but not in every option. It's not their most common type. They may only do rolls of this one. They invite you to email and ask them.
For anyone looking for a cheaper place to buy the screen, I may have found a similar product that is available at Home Depot.
Saint-Gobain ADFORS 36 in. x 25 ft. Charcoal Fiberglass Small Insect Screen-FCS8499-M - The Home Depot
According to the manufacturer's website, this is a 20/20 mesh with 0.013 wire, which I believe is the same as what Doug posted. It may not be the same quality, but for $22/roll you could do a bunch of tops.
Saint-Gobain ADFORS 36 in. x 25 ft. Charcoal Fiberglass Small Insect Screen-FCS8499-M - The Home Depot
According to the manufacturer's website, this is a 20/20 mesh with 0.013 wire, which I believe is the same as what Doug posted. It may not be the same quality, but for $22/roll you could do a bunch of tops.
I bought a roll of it today and it is perfect. Since I now have 10 lifetimes supply I'm going to post some to the classifieds (cheap) so others don't have to buy an entire roll
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