el dorado typical have lighter colored feet and not quite teh same size.

 

yeah, the new imports aren't Bri Bri, they are a pumilio from Panama that looks like what previously came in as "El Dorado". Confused? I am.

 

Here are a few quick shots of my red El Dorado from the recent imports. They are big frogs, similar in size to the BriBri I've seen if my memory is correct.

 

Tony - Whatever they are, those are gorgeous frogs.

Here are a few quick shots of my red El Dorado from the recent imports. They are big frogs, similar in size to the BriBri I've seen if my memory is correct.

 

I would def keep em seperate......by import year or close to it.

C.R "Bri Bri" are a bit bigger than everything I've seen labeled "Eldorado" in the past 4 years.

Both morphs are probably somewhat variable. The geogpraphic pumilio range around the village of Bri Bri Costa Rica most likely extends some distance into Panama.

Yep, confusing as always....

 

Don't know how much weight you want to put on this as I won't name names, (feedback and all that).
I spoke to someone on the phone this morning. I think you would all agree he knows a bit about pumilio. He saw a recent offering of "bri-bri" on here and says no way are they bri-bri.

 

He saw a recent offering of "bri-bri" on here and says no way are they bri-bri.

I'm surprised nobody has brought up legal issues. If the new imports WERE from BriBri, then they are smuggled since Costa Rica does not allow exports.

 

^ Indeed

The new imports are a mess of 'names' that are misleading at this point until new information comes to light, if ever..........'cristobals' not from the island, BriBri from the wrong country, and ManCreek just because they are red with gray legs

Buyer beware....

 

How badly does the hobby want to track this information?

The genetic tools exist, and are quite easy to use, to choose the right gene regions to track population level differences. We do it with all sorts of other things, salmon for example. We can track salmon to the individual rivers of their birth genetically.

Salmon however, are big business. PDF's are merely beloved.

What would be required would be pairing a 'morph guide' style approach, with the appropriate sequence data.

Then should a question arise about "BriBri 2011" being the same/different as "BriBri 1993", we would have a tool to answer it. Right now the foxes are guarding the hen house, and we are at the mercy of the folks who are commercially exploiting wild frogs when it comes to names and locales. Not an avenue I'm in favor of.

What would it cost? If we could come up with a single gene region or a series of microsatelites that would do the job (which is possible, but more would be better), and sampled (toe clip, or egg, or tadpole tail tip) say 15 frogs from each locality in the current morph guide (48 including all the Escudo 'Red'/ Escudo 'Blue' nonsense), and figured about $4 a two way sequence, then a ballpark cost would be $3000.00 for the genetics. Add in plane fare, and gas for the horrible open boat you'll use to get around Bocas/Valiente/Escudo, and some bus tickets for the mainland, and you could still develop a workable library for under $10,000.

Then post the sequences. When the next same/different question comes up, someone lops off a sacrificial toe and pays $15 to have it sequenced using our population level pumilio primer.
"Ah HA! now I know! no more import years for me!"

So how bad does the hobby want it? Enough to get ASN/TWI to fund a Master's project for some youngbuck who'll do the work? Enough to convince USFWS that the protection of BriBri is important enough that we need the tool to bust smugglers? Enough to call BS on frog 'ranches' that are stripping frog populations and providing crappy locale info?

-Afemoralis

 

Then should a question arise about "BriBri 2011" being the same/different as "BriBri 1993", we would have a tool to answer it. Right now the foxes are guarding the hen house, and we are at the mercy of the folks who are commercially exploiting wild frogs when it comes to names and locales. Not an avenue I'm in favor of.

What would it cost? If we could come up with a single gene region or a series of microsatelites that would do the job (which is possible, but more would be better), and sampled (toe clip, or egg, or tadpole tail tip) say 15 frogs from each locality in the current morph guide (48 including all the Escudo 'Red'/ Escudo 'Blue' nonsense), and figured about $4 a two way sequence, then a ballpark cost would be $3000.00 for the genetics. Add in plane fare, and gas for the horrible open boat you'll use to get around Bocas/Valiente/Escudo, and some bus tickets for the mainland, and you could still develop a workable library for under $10,000.

Then post the sequences. When the next same/different question comes up, someone lops off a sacrificial toe and pays $15 to have it sequenced using our population level pumilio primer.
"Ah HA! now I know! no more import years for me!"

So how bad does the hobby want it? Enough to get ASN/TWI to fund a Master's project for some youngbuck who'll do the work? Enough to convince USFWS that the protection of BriBri is important enough that we need the tool to bust smugglers? Enough to call BS on frog 'ranches' that are stripping frog populations and providing crappy locale info?

This could be a definite possibility. Funding and the proper point person/researcher would be key.

 

Hey JP, need a project for your postdoc?

 

Haha, possibly. I may be doing a bit of genetic work for tincs for PhD, so when post-doc rolls around, it's possible to do something like that. The biggest problem at the moment is finding the region of code that really tracks relationships (as I've said before, I'm not convinced with the current papers).

I've actually been wanting to do genetic work on the whole farmed/wild caught thing. If frogs are truly farmed, you'd expect closer genetic relationships than those that were randomly collected in the wild.

So many question, not enough time or money. If I don't roll around to it for post-doc, maybe I'll just have a grad student do it, lol.

 

My understanding is that "Bri Bri" and "El Dorado" are most likely the same frog...the same population...but clinal variations at opposite ends of the population. Bri Bri are the frogs that came out of Costa Rica, and 'El Dorado" was the fancy, marketable name given to the ones collected in Panama from the southern extant of the population. If these are what we would understand to be Bri Bri, then it would mean illegal collection from Costa Rica.

My assumption is that they are El Dorado from Panama which are being marketed as Bri Bri, either ignorantly or for a higher profit than they would get by selling them as El Dorado.

 

My assumption is that they are El Dorado from Panama which are being marketed as Bri Bri, either ignorantly or for a higher profit than they would get by selling them as El Dorado.

My guess would be the higher profit and quicker sales, so lets look at a morph guide. I was told El Dorados are not selling like they were and have become more like Almirantes to the importers/jobbers.

They are pretty frogs.

 

Afemoralis.... Sorry if this is off topic, but you have got the idea. This is exactly what this hobby needs. I am only new to this passion but feel that with all the frogs and all the "Identifying" going on we are bound to just get a mess of many similar morphs.

I am not sure how serious you were regarding this proposition but I would do what I could to help and would surely throw some cash towards this great idea.

 

I agree that a new name can mess up the gene pool.

 

Is Ian Wang on this board? Anyone tested his list of 15 microsatellites on captive pumilio? I can't access his 2010 Molecular Ecology paper, does anyone have the PDF?

 

PM your email address and I'll send you a copy.

 

I'd just like to point out that if 10k is an accurate figure, every ACTIVE member on this forum could donate $3 and we could fund it. If it takes off, put me down for a $10 pledge. Maybe get TWI to handle the funds?

 

From the point of view of the conservation of dendrobatids in the wild, I would think the development of an actual Taxon Management Plan (in cooperation with CITES and IUCN) would allow for the collection of gps-documented founder populations from the wild. These founder frogs would then become part of a longterm strategy for maintaining genetic diversity in captive populations. There would be a lot of "ground" work for such a project, but I think it would be worthwhile if it benefits the frogs in the wild.

Trying to tread the very murky waters of extant frogs in the hobby would not lend itself easily to a TMP. I also understand from the US FWS that hobby frogs that were acquired from illegal sources could never become "legal" and, therefore, would be of no conservation value.

Just a thought, Richard.

 

From the point of view of the conservation of dendrobatids in the wild, I would think the development of an actual Taxon Management Plan (in cooperation with CITES and IUCN) would allow for the collection of gps-documented founder populations from the wild. These founder frogs would then become part of a longterm strategy for maintaining genetic diversity in captive populations. There would be a lot of "ground" work for such a project, but I think it would be worthwhile if it benefits the frogs in the wild.

A taxon management plan would be excellent for pumilio, but the biggest problem is participation. We would need a large amount of individuals participating and actually showing that they can manage individual populations in captivity. When places like TWI are strapped for members and already have a number of TMPs, it starts getting spread thin. I don't think that CITES or IUCN would be interested until management could actually be demonstrated in captivity.

And at the current morph designations, neither the IUCN nor CITES will recognize morphs as conservation units. If there is to be conservation done at the population level, there needs to be official recognition of conservation units in need of focus. In this case, populations need subspecies designations. We see it done in things like tigers and galapagos tortoises where they have subspecies of conservation interest and each have their own management plan. IMO, there's no reason pumilio cannot be the same, at minimum, the island populations since, being

Trying to tread the very murky waters of extant frogs in the hobby would not lend itself easily to a TMP. I also understand from the US FWS that hobby frogs that were acquired from illegal sources could never become "legal" and, therefore, would be of no conservation value.

Just a thought, Richard.

At the moment, it's totally dependent on the species. Not that I am encouraging smuggling at all, but illegally brought in pumilio, for example, won't be of interest to USFWS once they get into the country. After frogs get into the country, they're no longer tracked or really of interest. As far as USFWS is concerned, all pumilio are from Panama (and really, other countries) are from one population and if it's legal to import pumilio, it doesn't matter where they come from. There are no requirements by importers to say anything other than that they're bringing in pumilio.

If anything is to be done for conservation of populations, they really need official recognition.

 

Richard, How could anyone prove a hobby frog to be illegal? Who actually keeps purchase receipts and what not for all their frogs? Actually, most of mine were paid for through paypal so maybe I answered my own question. In any case, it seems it would be hard to prove a frog was in fact illegal. I have heard that mint Terribilis all come from the same pair in Europe that were supposedly smuggled. Does this mean all my mints are supposedly illegal?

 

From the standpoint of the country of origin it does.

 

The TMPs researched by members of TWI's ASN are similar to the TSA or to AZA's.. and the guidelines are already in place for those who wish to take the steps.

Ed

 

I was actually refering to how the TSA was formed, as the result of a major US FWS confiscation of illegal turtles that were bound for the USA (and the subsequent need to find enough placements for the confiscated animals). Sometimes it takes a specific event that allows a hobby community an entrance to participate in the larger conservation effort.

Richard.

 

Great idea JP - TWI could issue a call for proposals and have a review board pick a winner. Funding opportunities are scarce these days so $10k (maybe a little more) should be a good incentive for labs to have their students submit an application.

 

thought I'd kickstart this idea again, seemed like a good one... I for one would be willing to contribute some moolah.

 

Me too - that would give an international angle to a project and could be helpful in atracting additional funding.

Regards
Graham

 

this seems like it could go hand in hand with Frye's union idea.

 

As new as I am to this, I certainly see myself sticking around for a good long time..

I'd kick some money in for sure...

 

I see there has been some activity since I last checked this thread out...and thought it would be worthwhile to add some info and things for consideration as the original ballpark of $10k is a bit low when it comes to the reality of something like this.

From an actual conservation standpoint, there isn't much here (as has been discussed, anyway) from a conservation standpoint. Unless that was changed, there isn't a whole lot TWI could do or be involved with if it was solely for fingerprinting hobby frogs. However, what I think Afemoralis might be thinking is a tool that could be used to verify that specimens actually came from locales the exporters claim they came from, which would be an actual conservation issue: helping to enforce CITES quotas by providing verification of origin. Once it is developed, of course, it could also be used to help sort out the confusion among frogs already in captivity...but for TWI to be involved, the latter reason couldn't be the primary one as it simply isn't our mission.

You might be able to get the basic fingerprinting done on $10k if you ONLY cover the costs that have been outlined...but what about a stipend for the grad student? Travel? Overhead? To develop something that could provide a model for conservation/enforcement, samples would need to be taken from across the species' range and you would also need a budget for sequencing a sampling of blind unknowns to demonstrate that you can reliably fingerprint a frog to its correct origin. The actual numbers--once everything is factored in--will most like be in the $30-50k range. As the costs begin to increase, you need to seek other sources of funding (to just fingerprint hobby frogs is not the type of study an outside funder would really be interested in funding, so all $10k would have to come from the hobby). If you're going to seek outside funding, you have to have a much more compelling scientific question or practical application than just trying to figure out the minutiae of which wild population your captive frog came from. However, if the project/question is interesting enough, it not necessarily all that difficult to pull together $5-10k grants for folks who have the determination and time to work on applications.

Just some things to mull over...

 

I think that we can all agree more money is better. And, I think that you are probably right about the real totals of money involved. That said, the beauty of funding graduate student research is that we wouldn't have to foot that whole bill. I think ANY money can be tremendously helpful for graduate students- and $10,000 is a lot. More than enough to motivate someone already interested in frogs to undertake the project. I think if TWI/ASN had the money and is capable of establishing this sort of thing (small research grants for grad students) they should look at the mission, evaluate target projects, and go for MORE grants, not larger amounts of $$$.

Grad students are not often charged overhead. The vast majority of grad students in decent grad programs in biology are getting some sort of stipend (Research Assistantships/Teaching Assistantships or Fellowships), in addition to a tuition waiver- so the limiting factor is often research funds.

The student to pull off this project is probably already working in or with a Molecular genetics lab (their advisors). If they don't already have this skill set (or an advisor teaching them), they are already not suited for the project. They are resilient and tolerant of traveling on a shoestring. They are avid and clever enough to have gotten into a program that is paying them to go to school, not the other way around. They are charming enough to leverage the money from the hobby against other entities with more (like their schools sequencing facility, or USAID, or....?), and can make it go farther.

So I'd stick with small grants to grad students. What you get back from your 'investment' is the gamble, but it always is. We won't know until we try.