[frogparty]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

BrianWI is correct. It's those bacteria that break down waste into a nitrate which your plants can readily use as fertilizer.

You obviously are trying to apply aquarium logic to terrestrial ecosystems. There's plenty of land based bacteria to do the job, and the way I keep my tanks, there's a minimum of water in m false bottom. Making Hydroton and the supposed bacterial benefits nil. I'd rather have no water standing in anything but broms and film cans. If you think terrestrial plants need aquatic bacteria to convert their nitrogen source you're kidding yourself.

 

[Judy S]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

Has anyone used the product Black Jungle sells that is "expanded glass"--very lightweight..obnoxious color but can be disguised, and looks like a sort of lava rock...it does what a porous biological product should do to promote good bacterial activity...interesting product...

 

[sports_doc]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

^ Judy, you referring to 'Featherlite' yes?

I have it in 30 + vivs. I agree the color is terrible, but Rich and Mike have been working on a Black version for some time.

I use it, it is truly almost weightless. Nothing like Lava Rock, although they look similar.

I 'disguise' it in the front inch with other substrate options, but it makes a great drainage layer.

I must have 15 bags of it, on stock....for upcoming vivs

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

You obviously are trying to apply aquarium logic to terrestrial ecosystems. There's plenty of land based bacteria to do the job, and the way I keep my tanks, there's a minimum of water in m false bottom. Making Hydroton and the supposed bacterial benefits nil. I'd rather have no water standing in anything but broms and film cans. If you think terrestrial plants need aquatic bacteria to convert their nitrogen source you're kidding yourself.

What I'm saying is my plant roots often reach down into the layer of LECA/Hydroton and can take advantage of those additional nutrients. I'm not saying the NEED aquatic bacteria to convert their nitrogen. It IS an additional benefit that LECA/Hydroton provides that a false bottom does not.

Do you drill your tanks and have a drain so that there is not much water in your false bottom? Just curious for knowledge sake. I think the sharing of tips and tricks and information is one of the things that keep this community close.

Judy and Shawn, thanks for the tip. I'm gonna check out the featherlite.

 

[frogparty]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

My older tanks have not been drilled, but the new ones have.
I see what you're saying about the roots reaching in, but don't bio balls work better in a nom stagnant environment?

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

Yes frogparty you are correct, and the more oxygen the bacteria are exposed to the more efficiently they work. That's where I think a false bottom benefits a good substrate. Because the substrate is exposed to oxygen on the top and bottom, if your water level is low enough. However when it comes to macrofauna population, my LECA vivs far out produce the false bottom vivs. Just my own personal experience. I wish there were some technique to have the benefits of both. Maybe a layer of LECA on top of a false bottom? IDK?

 

[BrianWI]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

bio balls work better in moving water because they were designed to.

If you have a "water layer" in your viv, it is an aquatic environment. The health of your aquatic environment can have an effect on your terrestrial one. Stinky nasty water under the substrate is not good. While having a false botttom will work, those little clay balls will be better for several reasons. Again, surface area is a big one, stability is another.

Don't confuse that with some filtering advantage though. Unless the water is moving, there is no mechanical filtration action.

 

[BrianWI]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

I suspect the glass product would have many of the benefits of LECA with the advantage of lower weight.

 

[frogparty]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

I try to keep as little water in my false bottims as humanly possible. I do NOT like stagnant water of any type. I did a project for my Microbio class a few years ago and cultured up bacteria from the water in one of my tanks from the little pond and there wass serious bioload in that water. I did a dilution of 10 to the -7 and still got well over 100 colonies from 1ml of tank water. Included were lots of Bacillus, including several species that form endospores, which are damn near impossible to kill. They resist bleaching, boiling, dessicating etc. To me, the presence of water in the hydroton just ups the chance Im going to get moisture lovers like these or Mycobacterial types, and Id rather just not risk it.

I also feel, like previously stated, that Id rather have my roots exposed to moist air in my falso bottom than sitting in stagnant water/hydroton.

 

[BrianWI]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

Sometime simplicity is easier than balance, no doubt. In the end, the hydroton will be a better environment, but maybe not enough so to be worth the trouble for you.

I do wonder what "water issues" have been observed for both.

 

[frogparty]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

What water issues? My plant roots will NEVER be too soggy, I wont have a stagnant anaerobic soil issue from too much water wicking up from the hydroton, and my tanks are lighter than they would be with a hydroton layer

 

[Pumilo]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

PDF tanks have been, and will continue to be built BOTH ways successfully. I have built them both ways successfully. I live in Colorado and we have very dry winters. In the end, I find that moisture sealed in the viv is moisture sealed in the viv. My LECA vivs are NOT more humid than a good false bottom.
The very argument about the "improved bacterial action" you get with LECA is an argument in favor of false bottoms. This "improved bacterial action" is direct competition with a healthy microfauna population.
You want to use LECA? Go ahead and use it. You want to use a false bottom? Go for it. They are BOTH viable methods.
But it is ridiculous to try to present, as FACT, that LECA is a better system when you have never worked with false bottoms in dart frog vivs. To try to present information from aquariums, as a direct crossover to dart frog vivs is simply flawed and you simply cannot back it up.

 

[BrianWI]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

My viv is not sealed. It has air flow necessary for some of the plants.

Where you are wrong is when you say bacterial action is competing with the microfauna. That is probably why you are coming to your erroneous conclusion.

But, if you choose to believe that surface area and trapped oxygen in the LECA is irrelevant to bacterial colonies, be my guest. You have every right to be wrong.

 

[frogparty]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

terrestrial bacteria and fungi are just as good at converting N sources.

 

[frogparty]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

Another thing to keep in mind is that FISH in aquatic ecosystems produce ammonia, which is highly toxic and water soluble, while AMPHIBIANS produce urea, which is about 100,000 times less toxic and subject to different pathways of biological breakdown. Since this is the primary source of the Nitrogen being converted by the bacteria its worth noting

Some reading http://ex-anatomy.org/nitro.html

 

[frogparty]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

They are fantastic for their REAL intended purpose, which is soilless plant culture. But even in that application, roots do better not totally submerged in stagnant water, but rather in an ebb/flow system where oxygen is more readily available, even deep water culture with hydroton requires an air pump in the liquid for optimal results

 

[sports_doc]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

ahh the fun begins.

If you cant find your posts....its because the Mod Staff removed them and you can look for an infraction in your mailbox

 

[Judy S]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

Hmmmmm...so now all of us who care about the best care of our trapped animals who rely on our care are on the sidelines watching, nervously, on this testosterone fired discussion about something the rest of us know NOTHING about and rely on this board for a balanced, reasoned discussion for a mutually agreed upon presentation of facts...facts..

 

[sports_doc]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

I assume that is directed at me, so I will say Judy IMHO there are no facts here, at all....just opinions.

And since false bottoms have been around longer then my own...bottom...I'd just think it wise to continue to do so.

What you use, from ping pong balls, to LECA, to gravel, to Bioballs, to cat litter is up to you.

The environment is almost completely anaerobic 3-4 inchs below the substrate, so IMO it doesnt matter. False bottoms serve to drain stale water away from plants...and I doubt they do anything more then that.

And yes, I've built a couple more then a few vivs Doug ...

 

[Judy S]

Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?

No...it was not directed at you! However, what I was trying to say is that people like me get confused so easily because we do not have the experience you guys have....and really want to do the very best for our captives... Experiences that are acquired and practiced by the "old hands" at this wonderful hobby have that: experience. I cannot evaluate whether I prefer one method over the other because I don't know how either/any method works out over time... but by reading posts by the various members, one gets a sense about quality of information...what your thread 'bout Cred...suggests...