[jgragg]

Hi,

I'm not sure if you've decided on a final solution for your background texture (honestly I didn't read everything about the selenite crystals etc etc) but I did note the mention of West Systems epoxy.

Something I have done many times in the past, and with some builds am still enjoying the results of today, is to:
1) carve/sculpt texture into my foam with a pointed, serrated blade; besides cutting in cracks, ledges etc, know that you can use the tip to peck out little pockmarks for a karst or "wonderstone" look, then
2) seal the foam with a couple coats of brushable epoxy, and finally
3) color the epoxy (either with powdered mineral pigments, or with acrylic paints). I like to start coloring maybe 30 minutes after applying the last epoxy coat, since although it's extremely sticky when still uncured, epoxy is conversely extremely non-stick when it's cured; I find it best to work with it, than to fight it (it tends to win, if you don't know how to work with it).

This method can produce some very pleasing "fake rock" that weights nothing, is utterly waterproof, and is hard-shelled and durable. I share your disdain for organics pressed into silicone as a background. These days I'm liking a combination of this "fake rock" and "cork mosaic" for my larger backgrounds.

Anyway - congrats, you've got yourself an interesting, ambitious project. I'm sure you are learning so, so, soooo much. Hopefully this project turns out well enough to stoke you to do it all again in the not-too-distant future, but even better. Take your time, do your homework, and prepare your surfaces for good adhesion whenever applicable. It'll all pay off.

good luck!

 

[Kinstrome]

jgragg,

Would you happen to be able to post a photograph of one or more of your setups using this colored-epoxy method? I'm very interested.

I wouldn't say I have a disdain for organics in the background (although I'm sure I wrote something that made it sound that way), only that there are some struggles to be sure. I actually rather like three-dimensional plant life representations, but with the great amount of light that this enclosure is going to enjoy, using moss to "pretty up" the background, all the way to the top wall, is probably going to result in a lot of dead moss and an ugly dead background.

I am a little skeptical that your method of background coloration will be viable in my situation when the walls of this particular enclosure are so massive, covering so much surface area. I may not have time to paint the last layer before it totally cures! And there are so many objects in the back walls that the epoxy would surely leak over onto, say, the dragon bones or the castle. (Plus, with so much surface area, the cost of multiple epoxy layers is sure to be expensive! IIRC one gallon of West System's 105 + 207 [clear cure] is a little less than $200 USD.)

Even so, I am absolutely grateful for hearing new methods of decorating enclosures. I'd be very happy if you could produce a picture or a few pictures of this method used in a vivarium.

I also wanted to say, I am pretty much exactly at the point in development in which all the foam has been cut but no silicone or any other adhesive has been applied to decorate the cut foam. The selenite crystals have been inserted, of course, but they don't occupy much space.

This photograph I recently uploaded gives a decent idea of what the foam background looks like, although at this point the whole back wall is covered in foam. There are also a few epoxy-clad selenite crystals in the background, although some of them may be difficult to see.

 

[jgragg]

I prefer to not put images online, but I can describe a few options or aspects of what I have done with foam, epoxy, and pigments. I could also text you some pics if you like. Just PM me.

First, while epoxy is like silicone and doesn't like to stick to its cured self, it sticks just fine to its partially-cured self. Basically if it still has a bit of "tack" to it, I consider it sufficiently adherent to go ahead and add another layer, or to overlap along an edge. This enables the user to not have to do a full-width coat every time they need to put on some more epoxy. My biggest wooden viv, with bulkhead, sump, and stream, was about 60"T x 33"W x 28"D. Yours might be bigger, but...that was a big viv, and I used the method I described to you (with the pigment being acrylic paints, in that case).

You are quite right to be leery of the mess-making potential of epoxy. Sweet Jesus it gets everywhere. For this reason, I blundered into a (for me...) new method, that of building my foam backgrounds in sections, coating & coloring them on all sides except that to be adhered to the viv walls, and then adhering the otherwise-completed pieces to the viv walls. If the walls are glass, great - just use silicone. If the walls are wood, and have been covered already in epoxy, you just have to scuff the epoxy on the walls, and use fresh epoxy as the adhesive to stick the foam to the walls.

West is definitely expensive stuff! I have never used it. However I have used both Polygem and Smooth-on products.
https://www.smooth-on.com/product-line/habitat-cast-coat/
https://www.polygem.com/products/zoopoxy

With Polygem I have only used the 307 lite, and with the Smooth-on I have only used their Cast & Coat. I have also used a thickening agent from Polygem, with both companies' stuff. I can heartily recommend all these, though I now prefer brushable over putty formulation for most coating applications.

Two layers of brushable will do you, if you've taken care to not leave any bare spots with the first layer. Honestly, one layer of putty will probably do you, unless you've got amazing technique with a trowel and can get that crap on there thin. I tend to lay putty on thick (thicker than necessary, but it's a bit hard to master the tool and material) - one of the reasons I now prefer the brushable formulation. Note that both companies now offer brushable and putty formulations, and also thickening agents in case the texture you want to work with is either 1) somewhere between the off-the-shelf offerings, or 2) stiffer (and less sticky!) than off-the-shelf putty.

• Basically the putty is good for laying onto minimally-prepped foam, and then adding texture to that (with e.g. stippling with a thick brush, denting with crumpled tin foil or an actual rock, or creasing / "cracking" with a knife or trowel).

• The brushable on the other hand, is good for when you've taken substantial care texturing your foam, and want to retain almost all that texture after the epoxy is applied.

• If you were a good hand-thrower, already a good ceramic artist or potter for example, you could add thickening agent to putty and just form up your caves or whatever. No foam.

I actually rather like three-dimensional plant life representations, but with the great amount of light that this enclosure is going to enjoy, using moss to "pretty up" the background, all the way to the top wall, is probably going to result in a lot of dead moss and an ugly dead background.

The trick is layering placement such that the upper strata don't hog all the light. E.g., just do mini broms up top, and only run them along the back and sides. Don't fly anything into space, on branches or whatever, way up high. This is the best zone for the cork mosaic, as you can have nice drier feet for the broms by mounting to the cork, and you can have mosses occupying the dead LFS packed into the interstices. Moss won't do well lower down, with less light, anyway. There are plenty of vascular plants that will however.

Anyway, long post here - I'll sign off.

Good luck, and have fun!

 

[jgragg]

It might also be helpful to point out - the brushable formulation I know is of a consistency much like cool (~65F?) honey. It flows (yeah, slowly, but oh it flows), and it self-levels, and interestingly, if it's applied overhead and it drips (and oh, it does drip!), the place it dripped from does not dry to a sharp point but instead it retracts into a very mild little bump. I guess there's a lot of surface tension, despite the high viscosity. If you brush it heavily onto a vertical wall, it slowly sags and runs down, and runs out onto any connecting horizontal surfaces, but a substantial thickness remains on the vertical plane too. A lot of the craft of using this stuff, is learning how much / how little to brush onto vertical and overhead surfaces, to avoid winding up with a floor coat that's about 5x thicker than everything else. But also avoid gaps in coverage. Not quite art, but definitely skilled craft.

The putty formulation on the other hand is of a consistency much like cool peanut butter. The cheap, well-emulsified, sugary stuff, not the good "nuttin' but peanuts" stuff that is much stiffer, that you have to stir yourself. You can trowel putty overhead or on vertical surfaces and it stays there just like you placed it. No sag, no drip, no nothing.

Adding the thickening agent reduces the stickiness and viscosity of either formulation (which starts out as super-duper sticky!), such that you can form shapes by gloved hand. It's easy to just start small and keep adding agent and kneading it in until you get the consistency right where you like it. Without the thickening agent, you can do a bit of that hand-placing and hand-shaping with the putty formulation if you keep dipping your hand (or other tool, like putty knife or trowel) in water. Otherwise it's hopelessly sticky.

• When I'm working with putty I always have a roll of paper towels, a trash can, a box of disposable gloves, and a disposable vessel full of water, large enough to accommodate dipping my tool(s) and paper towels into it. I use a lot of paper towels to keep my gloved hands quite clean, and the tool(s) cleanish. Avoid heavy build-up, or the stickiness starts to dominate. Just moisten a paper towel, grab the tool or wipe your hand with it, and pull or wipe off as much putty as you can. Repeat until clean/cleanish.
  
• When I'm working with the brushable stuff I have the paper towels, the gloves, and the trash can. Just no water. No dipping the tool, which is just a non-shedding brush.
  
• Putty is less messy for your surrounding environment. It can only move where you accidentally transfer it (and you will!). The brushable is VASTLY more messy, because it drips, or self-vectors if you prefer. Much like with painting, working with epoxy requires wearing "garbage clothes and shoes".

It is my impression that West Systems epoxy is much, much runnier than either of the off-the-shelf formulations I have described. It appears to be somewhere between water and hot syrup, I'd say. Anyway - maybe that's where "5 coats" of West comes from? That could well be what's recommended for their stuff.

Incidentally, last weekend I killed the dregs of a 1.5-gal kit of Habitat Cast & Coat (brushable) I had bought over the winter. Being a voracious viv crafter, last night I re-upped, and bought a 2-gal kit of 307-lite (putty). Straight from the manufacturer, the 2-gal kit cost about $120. Just a point of reference to West, and your mention of ~$200/gal.

OK, hope you also find this useful and interesting. Good luck moving ahead productively, with minimal frustration and waste.

 

[Kinstrome]

jgragg,

As before, I am very grateful for these greatly detailed posts. The former of the two more recent posts, the one explaining the putty versus the brushable, this post I read twice over thoroughly, because I know that this information will be invaluable as I continue making terraria / vivaria. (I have only had a moment to skim over the latter of these two posts, but I will scrutinize it more later.)

I will say, however, that I am likely not going to be able to take advantage of these substances for this particular terrarium, due to the aesthetic I am aiming for --- if, of course, I am imagining what these backgrounds of yours have the potential to look like.

This is an issue I have struggled with even during the early concepts of this project. What is an appropriate background for a scene with a dragon and a ruined castle? Those are not typical terrarium or vivarium (and definitely not paludarium) subject matter. An ordinary terrarium tries to mimic nature, not fantasy. Even the ones that incorporate fantastical elements --- like the recent fairy-garden vivarium --- do so on a smaller scale and with subjects like fairy buildings that can work easily with a natural setting.

I had thought about embedding pink foam beneath the Great Stuff foam to give the idea of a castle gate peeking through the earthen walls under which it has been buried. That was probably the nearest to a plausible setting for the dragon and the "keep" of the castle. But I didn't like the idea of another castle wall made out of another material surrounding the first castle (what one could call the "keep"), which was made out of epoxy clay.

Moss --- or a crapload of epiphytes --- along with shiny crystals is the nearest I can get to the aesthetic I am going for, which is somewhat muddy and vague. I am basing the idea of crystals and forests together off of The Sanctuary of Zi'Tah, a part of an MMORPG I played when I was much younger.

I was thinking of the intel you gave about putting moss or neoregelias here or there on the wall to help them survive. I had a bit of trouble understanding it completely. Do you think it would be a good idea for me to make a graph with divided parts so you could better point out which sections of the wall need which kinds of plant life? For instance, the last foot below the ceiling of the terrarium could have a bracket designated "A", then the foot below that as "B", etc. I would try to make it as easy as possible to see what I'm talking about.

Thanks again for the intel.

 

[Kinstrome]

I went ahead and made a diagram anyway, because I had time:

^ "A," "B," "C," and "D" correspond to segments of the terrarium's total height from the substrate to the ceiling. I was hoping somebody could tell me something like " 'A' is exclusively for neoregelias," or " 'C' and 'D' are bad zones to mount mosses" or "All epiphytes want to be at least as high as 'C' if they want to have enough light," or something that uses those lettered zones to explain where different types of wall-mounted plants should be.

I also include a photograph of what the terrarium looks like right now, to better understand the graph, although I didn't really want to preview my whole terrarium until it was practically done:

^In case this looks like utter chaos, I'll explain a little. The dragon is what you see in all the driftwood; the castle is the gray structure that occupies the right side of the terrarium; all the black bits that look like dried lava are cut (or yet-to-be-cut) Great Stuff foam.

EDIT: Because the forum seems to adjust vertical photos to be horizontal, the dragon on the "left" half is actually on the bottom half and the castle on the "right" half is actually on the top half.

^This is the left arm that had been planned for part of the terrarium. It was going to be mounted above-right of the skull, and would have had its fingers spread under one of the lights, creating an interesting trick of light.

For now, though, unless I find some unforeseen way to make it work, I've decided to exclude it from the terrarium. I found great difficulty in making it look like it was really part of this dragon, when it emerges from the foam.

(A note: The pieces in the photograph would have been cut shorter than they are; otherwise, they would never have fit at all. I just never ended up cutting those pieces of driftwood, because I realize the left hand would not work.)

 

[jgragg]

Hi again,

Your graph paper chart was helpful. In short, lighting really tall vivs (I know this won't have animals, but it's a viv to me 'cause there's "life in a box") is a bitch. While some of the material (e.g. there's more linear LEDs around now) is aging, the basics of this (e.g., the inverse square rule) are still helpful:

NEHERP - Vivarium Lighting 101 - Everything you need to know, to grow plants in a live vivarium

You could also call the guy at Spectral Designs for a consultation and a custom-build quote.

Elsewhere I saw you respond to Dane's info about growing lush mosses etc. Whether or not you install fans, I think you'll want (well, need) some passive ventilation. Basically, put "some holes" (either go for technical detail, or wing it with a fudge factor) down by the substrate, preferably in the front, and some holes up top, preferably in the back.

Hand misting can be fine, but you may tire of it. And, don't you ever leave town for a while? Visit family at Christmas, go on business trips, or whatever? Maintaining, and especially establishing, a lush viv with hand misting alone is tricky - all it takes is a few dry days to set you back weeks or worse. Luckily amending your armoire to accept an automated system won't be hard. Just a little drilling and screwing. More important will be to - up front, now - install drainage. In a wood box, you need drainage! (And air flow...)

Hey FWIW I think with the dragon & castle theme (love the whimsy BTW), plants with smaller leaves are gonna look better, for the most part. There are some epiphytic ferns (e.g., Microgramma vaccinifolia), a few hardy club mosses (e.g. "peacock moss", Selaginella uncinata), a number of small-leaved vascular plants such as baby's tears, etc. And of course, plenty of true mosses.

cheers

 

[Kinstrome]

I read the NEHERP guide a while ago, although I could use a refresher and will read it again. I have some Jungle Dawn lights ready for the terrarium, if they are a wise fit for it. I probably won't be able to mount one of the vertical strips because of the cutting I've already done (all the circles made for a specific size of lamp), unless the lights I have are entirely inadequate, in which case I suppose I can seal those holes.

I have the materials to create drainage; I only have had reservations about doing so because of my experience with bulkheads in the past. In my previous large-scale terrarium, which was also wood-built, I was preeeeetty darn sure I had tightened the bulkhead to the point that it could not possibly leak. But 6 months later I noticed the wood on the outside starting to rot. In this terrarium's case, I have taken pretty good precautions against leaking in the drainage layer, so if I can install a bulkhead safely, I have no opposition to doing so. Only I fear the consequences of a not-perfectly-installed bulkhead.

On the subject of ventilation, I think that that will not be as impossible as I thought, if the PC fans that I can buy are easily hooked up to a power source and are as small as I'm thinking they are.

The misting system won't be bad, either, if I can get by with the basic Mistking system or, at most, the Ultimate. I looked up some videos on how to install it, and it doesn't seem too bad.

I agree that smaller-leaved plants will probably look better, especially because the non-plant imagery in the terrarium already requires people to squint to see what's supposed to be going on. That's part of the reason I wanted moss in the background.

 

[jgragg]

In my previous large-scale terrarium, which was also wood-built, I was preeeeetty darn sure I had tightened the bulkhead to the point that it could not possibly leak. But 6 months later I noticed the wood on the outside starting to rot.

A cheap insurance policy is to carry your epoxy or other waterproofing from the inside of the viv, right down & out through the bulkhead penetration, and lap it around the bottom/outside of the hole about 2".

 

[Kinstrome]

A silly question: where am I putting this bulkhead? The one I have doesn't appear to have a stopper to prevent it from running all the time, so I am assuming that it's supposed to be run as a preventative against the water getting too high, and thus is positioned above the desired water line. But, of course, I have the rectangular pump access chamber that already performs roughly the same function.

Should I put this just above where the water is supposed to go to, or should I find one with a stopper on the outside and just put it "underwater" so to speak?

Also, which dimensions / stats should I look for in a PC fan, and how many do you think I will need considering the dimensions of my terrarium (roughly ~250 gallons of non-substrate open space)?

 

[jgragg]

I'll leave the fan thing to others, as I do not use them. I keep snakes; active ventilation would literally be the death of them. Passive ventilation and plenty of it, is how I roll.

I prefer bottom mounts for bulkheads, period. That way you have very little dead pool - gravity alone will just about empty you out. If you want to maintain some depth you can just install a standpipe. When I do this, I like the bulkhead out in the open (like, in the bottom of an exposed pool, and not hidden away inside the false bottom) and the standpipe not glued in, so I can just reach in & pull the plug, so to speak, and get a full-volume dump. I have even seen some guys (fish guys, in their formative years I guess?) have a strainer atop the standpipe and also some little holes or slits down near the bottom and half-way to the top, so they were pulling off different elevations of the water column. Dirty water would be skimming off the surface, and also sucking in off the bottom. This is more for hyper-messy animals like turtles. But it's also cheap insurance against clogs & overflows - there's another route out for the water, somewhere along the length of the standpipe, until the top-most strainer is also clogged & then you're done for.

I have done some tanks with rear-or side-mounted bulkheads. Those were accommodations to the shelving I was using. Since then, I always go bottom mount, and if need be I will now lift the tank on rails or stilts or whatever, so there's room for the hose and such coming out the bottom. It's just where experience has got me to; I'm sure there are plenty of guys still happy with their side or rear - or even front - mounts.

If it helps, imagine the water pressure imparted by different depths. That pressure is always working against your waterproofing materials & methods. Less pressure is better - no pressure (just humid air!) is best. At an extreme, you could form the bottom of your viv like the bottom of a shower - everything sloping towards the drain. No standing water, period. I don't go that far, but I do now shoot for minimal standing water in all new builds.

cheers

 

[Kinstrome]

Unfortunately, I am just about not going to be able to avoid having a standing water supply if I am going to have a waterfall working at all. If I can install a standing pipe that happens to be above the level of water necessary to maintain the waterfall, I will consider a bottom-of-the-box drainage system, although there isn't much room under the armoire to put that kind of thing.

Really, I'd like to have drainage only present beyond the water level, because of how afraid I am that a drainage port located within the "normal" water level will screw up and perhaps render the entire terrarium unusable. (And certainly render the waterfall unusable.)

Is there an inherent problem with standing water in a non-vivarium, a problem that isn't related to leaking? I've put so many layers of waterproofing agents that I would find it hard to imagine leakage occurring once the armoire is back on its feet. Does the water fester if it sits for too long, and become dangerous to the plant life?

I must say, I am very interested in the idea of a safe snake vivarium. I, too, own only snakes as far as herps go --- a ball python and a BCI --- and my history of trying to build an attractive terrarium for them is a lengthy chronicle that ultimately ended in just putting them in plain acrylic enclosures with newspaper floors, plastic hides, and no plant life whatsoever.

 

[jgragg]

Oh, I'm sorry - in looking at the pictures of the armoire I imagined the "floor" of the display space (not the "working" space) being suspended above the void where you've got your access hole cut in the back.

• I saw what I suppose is the framework for a drawer (2 "rings" of 1x2 looking millwork) and assumed the upper "ring" (or something in that neighborhood) was going to support a sheet of plywood.
• That is where I'd put a bulkhead.
• The access hole would permit access to the pump/filter, and to a sump/drain bucket or other vessel (even just a plastic shoebox could work, if it would hold enough water to produce your stream; it is critical that your vessel be large enough to hold the entire volume of system water).

Hmm. I suppose something like a vertical partition, running across the width of the armoire in that lower area, could serve your needs. The front could hold your reservoir of water. The back could house your pump (not a submesible pump, more like a canister filter). If the pump sits lower than the top of the water, I think that would keep it happier. You'd have to break the suction every time you service the pump, otherwise you've got a mess on the floor. And you'd need a dependably self-priming pump, to get the water up over the partition. But...it could work. Maybe we need some more pictures (better than thumbnails?) of the bottom end of the armoire, and some more guidance on how you hope to use it?

Is there an inherent problem with standing water in a non-vivarium, a problem that isn't related to leaking? I've put so many layers of waterproofing agents that I would find it hard to imagine leakage occurring once the armoire is back on its feet. Does the water fester if it sits for too long, and become dangerous to the plant life?

Oh, this is a tiny naughty bit humorous. Many would answer that the inherent problem, is the water feature itself! But I would answer "no, not really". Many might also imagine a smart-assed crack like "don't let your limited imagination fool you into hoping for the best!" (Water is kind of a bastard, I will admit.) I'd say water that doesn't have stuff leaching into it, and that is being used and acted on by aerobic life forms, does not tend to fester. Particularly if there is some agitation, and plenty of air contact. You could, if you wanted, put in an inline charcoal canister (or use a canister filter for your pump). That would remove odors and colors from the water.

cheers

 

[Kinstrome]

I'm going to attempt to link photographs with Imgur, although that hasn't worked well all of the time, because of some stupid crap Imgur does in which it doesn't let me load images from my laptop or phone. (it's the main reason I use the in-forum system of photo linking.)

Some of these photos will probably be unintentionally sideways, but I can't change that because I can't re-take some photos.



^This is the armoire when the only things that had been done to it were cutting out the shelves (which is what I assume you mean by "drawers") and using the boards from one of the shelves to create a barrier to contain the drainage layer / substrate layer. Some notes to clarify what you're seeing:

• The three open circles you see cut into the back wall are NOT in any way related to the project. They were presumably created by the armoire-builders in order to allow power cords through the different shelf layers (which makes NO sense given how old this piece of furniture otherwise appears to be). Since the time of this photograph, they have been sealed shut completely and waterproofed several times over.

• The rectangle that allows access to the waterfall pump has not been cut yet.

• I assume what you mean by "rings" are the remains of the shelves, which had to be jig saw'd out because they were neither removable nor desired. If that is what you are referring to, there are two of them. The lower of the two --- which closely lines up with the vertical barrier that I put up in the front of the armoire --- is more or less the demarcation line for the substrate.

Now, the next photograph --- which is not that good, but which couldn't be any better considering that the armoire is on its side right now --- has the waterfall pump's rectangle-shaped opening:



(Okay, maybe that photo could have been taken a little bit better, but my hands are shaky right now.)

What you see in this photo, at about the middle, are the waterfall pump dangling by its serrated hose, and the power cord dangling from the pump. That rectangle that the serrated hose is passing through is the rectangular opening I'm referring to. It starts about ~4.5 inches off of the floor of the armoire (to the left of it in this picture) and ends about 3 inches below the first cut-out shelf.

Now here are front-and-back photographs of what the eggcrate / PVC pipe / mosquito netting part of the false bottom are going to look like:




It's a basic eggcrate + PVC + filtering material setup, but I created an extra box to protect the pump from the substrate while also allowing water to pass easily into it.

(I'm waiting for the "holy crap, you need to start all over" shoe to drop!)

I can see how, if water purity is the goal, this is not a perfect solution. I will say that I've zip-tied several layers of mosquito netting to each segment of eggcrate, but I am not so foolish to think that that means no particles, ever, will make their way to the waterfall pump. That's why I left the serrated hose loose, so I can pull the pump out and clean it out once in a while.

I'm not quite sure how I could create a vertical partition in this particular terrarium even if I started all over with the drainage layer and scrapped everything drainage-related that I did so far. My reason for saying this is that the whole surface of the ground is going to be ground, and even though the waterfall is only supposed to land in one place, likely the water from misting and from whatever else is going to seep into the drainage layer from every part of the substrate. I may be misunderstanding, though.

Thank you again for another detailed response. I know dealing with all these questions must be trying, and I am very grateful for your indulging my concerns and answering them. Have a good one !

 

[jgragg]

Oh, these pictures & text are most instructive, thanks.

(I'm waiting for the "holy crap, you need to start all over" shoe to drop!)

Nope, not gonna happen! I can definitely see your setup working. I would strongly recommend some energetic leak-testing ASAP however - does your sealed wooden basin hold water? If you discover you have a problem, might I suggest "going nuclear" - go get yourself a piece of pond liner e.g., EPDM.

I assume what you mean by "rings" are the remains of the shelves, which had to be jig saw'd out because they were neither removable nor desired. If that is what you are referring to, there are two of them. The lower of the two --- which closely lines up with the vertical barrier that I put up in the front of the armoire --- is more or less the demarcation line for the substrate.

Yes, I see now. They looked like the sort of wooden rails old-school chests of drawers used. I assume when you say "demarcation line" you mean the top or "finish" elevation of the substrate.

Here's what may be a jarring few questions. Do you need an organic substrate? Heck, do you even need a particulate substrate? Using something inorganic will help maintain water quality - "don't make tea!". Could you get away with something as simple as a centimeter of TurfAce? Or maybe even something like artificial turf right atop your screen? If weight is not a concern, how about pea gravel or larger cobbles? Or angular stones of...whatever size seems right for your application? Many cliffs have a steep colluvial deposit below them - a talus ramp, if you will.

Something motivating the questions - that height (even with ZERO intervening objects like branches, leaves etc) is hard to light adequately for ground-stratum live plants. And, as your upper-strata plants mature and grow, the shade down low will deepen into a true gloom. What if you let that problem just go away? Just have plants mounted on the background, sides (if you wish) and maybe on some branches? And turn the bug (the gloom) into a feature (some fantasy Hell-land, or where the Dwarves or Gollum live, or some such?).

cheers

 

[Kinstrome]

Glad to hear the eggcrate doesn't need to be re-done Cutting all those eggcrate pieces to the unusual contours of the armoire's interior was a hassle and made a huge mess in what is not really even my living room to make a mess in.

As far as surface plants go: it is true that I could make an inorganic surface feasible except for one feature of this terrarium that I only briefly touched on: the ficus retusa.

[I can't load a non-thumbnail pic of the retusa because I'm typing on my laptop and it is mysteriously impossible for Imgur to load images, even though my laptop and my PC are virtually the same in every meaningful way.

There is a sideways pic earlier in the thread, though.]

The very original premise of this terrarium, which preceded all others, was of a ruined castle being consumed by a living plant. I was advised on this board to get ficus microcarpa, but I settled on retusa for price-related reasons.

Because evidently retusa dislikes being saturated in water, I was going to build it on a mound inside the castle ... it's kind of complicated to explain, or to convey a faithful mental picture of what it's supposed to look like. Basically, I wanted the tree to grow through the intricate interior of the castle under a Jungle Dawn "mega spotlight" (or two), and the mound of earth would both aid in the tree not being saturated by the water in the rest of the substrate and aid also in it getting enough light from the Jungle Dawn light.

That's 100% theory. I recognize that that isn't exactly a scientific strategy for making the plant grow safely. I had also heard recently, from you or someone else, that fertilizer isn't a good idea.

I could make the entire substrate except for the tree part just be river stones, the relatively inexpensive kind that I photographed earlier in the thread. Although that would be attractive in some way, I don't know if that's really the look I'm going for. Besides, I already have something like 10 gallons of ABG mix* ready right now. Plus many gallons of already-frozen magnolia leaves for leaf litter / springtail food.

*I wanted to say, I have NO IDEA about whether or not ABG mix is suitable substrate for a ficus tree like the one I am going to put in. I wasn't able to find that information, probably because not that many people want to put bonsai trees inside their terrariums.

EDIT: I should clarify about the water testing: I think I said something misleading about the waterproofing testing that I've done. I have tested it two separate times, but I haven't done the final test for ~48 hours that confirms it's watertight. In both of the tests, I discovered leaks, which I then siliconed and epoxy'd. I will see what's up in the final test.

The good news was that it was hole-related leaks, and not water seeping through the wood. Well, I guess that's good news.

EDIT: Not to make a long post longer, but I wanted also to acknowledge the point about lighting substrate-level plants. I was planning to create the "sunken" look that my other terrarium has, by which I mean, I was going to cheat and use a tradescantia / wandering jew-like plant that just about can't die and covers the ground quickly. My other terrarium has this plant growing all the way from the ground, 4 feet down, and it's using a bulb with less than half the illuminance that this Jungle Dawn bulb evidently has.

Not a long-term strategy, clearly, but I can always remove it if it truly takes over.

 

[jgragg]

OK, you're going for some kind of Angkor Wat / Tikal look, with the banyan coming out of the ruin. I get that. Should be fun.

No woody ficus I know of likes wet feet.

Nope, I didn't say anything about fertilizer. I'm not sure - given there will be no animals - why that would be a terrible idea. If used lightly - ideally, only apply as much as the plant will consume. I expect you'd like some rapid growth up to desired size, then you'll back off the food and prune aggressively, so as to +/- bonsai it.

*I wanted to say, I have NO IDEA about whether or not ABG mix is suitable substrate for a ficus tree like the one I am going to put in. I wasn't able to find that information, probably because not that many people want to put bonsai trees inside their terrariums.

I think it'll love it. Non-compacting, moisture holding, and well drained? Few plants don't appreciate those attributes. Certainly not terrestrial ones from the humid tropics.

Idea - most woody ficus have pretty assertive aerial adventitious roots. You could build into the background, suitable colonization sites (pockets of terrestrial substrate, or, some cork mosaic with moss packed between the cork bits). Eventually you could wind up with a very exotic "strangler fig" kind of look, with woody, weaving, barked roots creeping all over.

 

[Kinstrome]

Before I get going any further, I wanted to ask --- is there any problem with just using aquarium safe silicone to stick moss on the GS foam and create a moss-wall (with some epiphytes on cork bits) ? It seems kind of harebrained, and I haven't run the idea past anybody. It's not totally too late for me to just line the whole background with cork flats to support moss, if that's what's needed, but that would be tough and I'm not sure it would look quite right.

Anyway!

Thanks for the input, I'm much more confident about the ABG mix for the tree.

Yeah, I'm sort of going for the Angkor Wat look in concept, but not the exact banyan-over-asian-ruins kind. The castle is meant to look a tad more like a European fantasy castle. But yes, it is meant to have the plant peeking through the different cracks and ruined areas of the castle, and if the aerial roots want to take over the bottom parts, I have no problem with that.

I'd like the roots to do that, but I guess I'll need cork bark at the base to make it work. For that matter, is it necessary to have cork for the moss to stay stable and alive, or can the moss just be supported by silicone, get its light and misting, and survive? I want to know before I appear with a pic of a moss-covered wall and hear, "...yeah, that's probably all going to die."

 

[jgragg]

is there any problem with just using aquarium safe silicone to stick moss on the GS foam and create a moss-wall (with some epiphytes on cork bits) ?

Well, no. I happen to think there are better ways to do it, though. More below. In short, I hate the way silicone shines through, once whatever you've stuck to it wears off. It's f*ckin ugly is all.

It's not totally too late for me to just line the whole background with cork flats to support moss, if that's what's needed, but that would be tough and I'm not sure it would look quite right.

Also not necessary, and I happen to agree with your aesthetic instincts. More below.

But yes, it is meant to have the plant peeking through the different cracks and ruined areas of the castle, and if the aerial roots want to take over the bottom parts, I have no problem with that.

I'd like the roots to do that, but I guess I'll need cork bark at the base to make it work. For that matter, is it necessary to have cork for the moss to stay stable and alive, or can the moss just be supported by silicone, get its light and misting, and survive?

OK, so, once again I'm giving this just a portion of my attention, and I'm also not quite able to resolve a picture of your final product in my imagination. Specifically, the relative height of the castle (halfway up the back? a third?) and how far towards the front it sticks (and how much light will get down there past it).

Anyway - of more immediate import - I suggest a "cork mosaic" using cork pieces, and intentional gaps just friction-stuffed with dead horticultural long-fiber sphagnum (LFS). For example the compressed stuff for sale on Glassbox Tropicals. Or the cheap bales you can get in the garden section of WalMart. Whichever. (The cheap stuff throws more "volunteers", the fancier stuff is pretty well killed dead, which gives you an easier blank canvas, if you like.) So you would silicone or otherwise adhere the cork bits, and just stuff the cracks a few days later with your LFS. The LFS, if adequately misted, dripped, whatever, will support live moss & other plants. It will also be happily invaded by adventitious roots of anything growing nearby (broms, epiphyic ferns, orchids, ficus, etc etc). You can mount many of those to the nearby cork. And, some mosses will venture out onto the cork. The margins at least, if you're niggardly with water. If you're generous some may cover most of the cork. But at that point, you're disadvantaging many other plants, so...I wouldn't aim for that. The LFS holds water great, if you just soak it once a day the moss will be stoked.

The key thing to remember is, moss needs light too! Hence my questions about overall layout, where's this castle going, etc. Another big thing - moss grows best on organic surfaces. Jeez, with enough light and frequent watering you can get it to grow on glass for God's sake, but do it a favor and offer it something more conducive. It will reward you with faster growth, better coverage, better resilience to vagaries of watering etc etc etc.

Hope this quick note is more helpful than confusing.

cheers

 

[Kinstrome]

I'm also not quite able to resolve a picture of your final product in my imagination. Specifically, the relative height of the castle (halfway up the back? a third?) and how far towards the front it sticks (and how much light will get down there past it).

That's a good question for the both of us! I really don't have a clear idea of how the light will interact with the whole castle installed, and that's because:

1. Part of the castle had to be installed while the armoire was on its back, and it hasn't been on its feet since then.
   
2. It's not reasonable to lift the armoire all the way up to standing without someone else's help.
   
3. The JD "mega spotlights" that provide a crapload of light can only really be tested over the castle while the armoire is standing, because they're in wire fixtures that don't fix to the hole in the wall like the broad floodlights + solid fixtures do.

What I suspect is that about 4 of the 6 ceiling lights will reach the right wall (which is the wall most blocked by the castle) in some capacity, some being blocked by some castle bits but not by others, others passing through those castle bits but being blocked elsewhere.

It is unfortunate, though, that without taking very good video footage (with a tripod or something) that curves around the castle, it is really hard to give a good idea of what the castle looks like. It is a thoroughly three-dimensional object. I wouldn't want someone to bore themselves, either, scrutinizing a video of ... a clay castle, moving back and forth.

Anyway - of more immediate import - I suggest a "cork mosaic" using cork pieces, and intentional gaps just friction-stuffed with dead horticultural long-fiber sphagnum (LFS). For example the compressed stuff for sale on Glassbox Tropicals. Or the cheap bales you can get in the garden section of WalMart. Whichever. (The cheap stuff throws more "volunteers", the fancier stuff is pretty well killed dead, which gives you an easier blank canvas, if you like.) So you would silicone or otherwise adhere the cork bits, and just stuff the cracks a few days later with your LFS.

I had done a little research into the cork mosaic a year or two ago, whenever I mostly lurked here. It seems like a neat idea, and I have a great supply of cork flats and LFS to work it, but I ran aground trying to understand it, both then and now:

The LFS, if adequately misted, dripped, whatever, will support live moss & other plants.

I'm not quite sure I understood how a bunch of loose strands of sphagnum keep a patch of moss in place?

[I should clarify something I had been meaning to post about, that is: I'm planning to use the many mosses that live naturally around Louisiana, which I put in a large pot, clean for 24 hours in water, and wring out and put in sealed plastic bags (which are put under light, of course).

So my moss is mostly in living patches, not the Dusk slurry, etc. if that's a problem?]

It just seems like the moss --- the desired moss, not the LFS that roots it there --- is likely to just plop out of the mosaic cracks, which are going to be already partially filled by LFS.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. The mosaic has always sounded wonderful, except for this one hangup.

[Another sidenote if you care, which I'm going to find an interesting color for in order to delineate the different thoughts in this big post:

I have an old "moss bank" I've mostly forgotten about, in completely airtight / watertight Ziploc-brand plastic boxes. They are outside, but they get pretty limited light, being stacked on top of one another. This is where I am confused about the moss / light matter: even with limited light, they EXPLODED in growth. Like, I have never seen moss anywhere in real life that has done as well as these mosses. I'll post a photograph later if that will clarify why this is the case.]