[EvilLost]

Hey all,

I apologize for the thread title...but its kinda true!

So I rescued some frogs a while back (around feb/march) and they have been doing well with me since. Some of you have helped me ID the frogs in my other thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...scued-some-frogs-could-use-some-guidance.html

The frogs are "okay" in their current setups but I have been unsatisfied with them since I received them (despite some fixing up I did...). I have setup a 29gal that is currently cycling and I wish to move the frogs to. I also need to break down the current tanks they are in for other reasons.

Now I'm personally pro-mixing (as long as it's done right) but I am not at the point to do it right. So, I was hoping to find someone who might trade me frogs?

From my understanding (see above thread) I have 0.0.1 Variablilis and 0.0.2 O.Pumilio Cristobals. I do not wish to mix them but I do not have any more room for them and the variabilis is in an 8" cube tank atm. So I was hoping for someone to trade me for the pumilio's or variabilis (or maybe I give you all 3 of them and you give me a 1.2 or somesuch set of something else?)

All 3 frogs have been eating quite well, and the pumilio's are not shy at all! The variabilis comes out to eat and occasionally looks out, but he is pretty skiddish whenever I get nearby.


If not, my worst case scenario is to either mix the 1 variabilis with the pumilios or to keep him in that 8" tank....neither of which makes me very happy




Sorry if this is posted in the wrong forum.....its not a classified so I wasn't quite sure where to post it.....I'm not "looking" to trade but I more feel like I "have to" :\

I can post pics of the new 29gal setup shortly

 

[btcope]

to be fair, you can't represent those frogs as o. pumilio cristobal. they are o. pumilio NO ID and should not be mixed/matched with other frogs. any trades or sales should be treated as such. as for the variabilis, you also should not guess as to the line/locale and trade or sell it to breed with another frog of known background.

i'm not picking on you, just think that you should tell any froggers who take these off your hands that their origin is unknown to prevent future pollution of bloodlines. it is the responsible thing to do.

respectfully,
brett

 

[EvilLost]

btcope: I'm sorry if it came across that way, I definitely didn't mean it!


Just to be clear, the "supposed" IDs I have are from people on these forums. I took these in as rescues; I actually don't know anything about them.


but that doesn't change the fact that I need to break down the pumilio tank relatively asap, the variabilis tank is ultimately too small for him, and i have a 29gal that could comfortably house 3 frogs....so I'm liking to just go ahead and mix them unless I can get a trade.....it seems more fair to the poor variabilis than keeping him in the 8" cube.


if someone would be interested in buying them, thats ok with me too....I'd just use the money to buy some frogs from someone else (if we couldn't work out a trade).

 

[SmackoftheGods]

it seems more fair to the poor variabilis than keeping him in the 8" cube.

It may seem that way now, but if the pumilio start picking on the variabilis you may change your tune....

That is in no way intended to mean that I am encouraging you to keep the variabilis in an 8" cube....

Is there some reason you can't go out and buy a 10 gallon tank for $15 and set yourself up a temp tank? Temp tanks aren't the ideal situation, but frogs can live comfortably in temp tanks for surprisingly long periods of time....

 

[Brotherly Monkey]

you could even use sterlite bins

 

[mikebell]

I think brotherly monkey saying right that you have to use sterlite bins.

 

[vivlover10]

The $1 per gallon sale is going on at petco so it can save money.

 

[Pumilo]

I'm sorry, but to me it seems just really wrong to be trying to guilt us into this. It's not our fault that you are considering mixing.
Furthermore, it seems even more wrong to be trying to guilt us into this when you basically state that soon enough, you are going to mix anyway.
Your solution seems clear and simple. Sell or give away the "variabilis".

 

[btcope]

i'm in socal and have a few 'extra' tanks set up i was planning on using as growouts for future froglets. if you like, i'll adopt the possible variabilis and give him/her a nice home to live alone in.

other possibility, as was mentioned, petco $1/gal is going until july 15th. you could get a 10 gal for $10, have a glass lid cut for $6, and keep him set up yourself. i could even give you some plant cuttings if you want to meet up next week.

-brett

 

[EvilLost]

lol I love the reactions I got..


@Pumilo: that is effectively what I am asking for, although I'd rather sell the pumilio's (i much prefer the coloring on the variabilis). I just used the controversial title to get some attention to the thread, but I guess I should have known that it means everybody would come in on the offensive



before I get flamed....my OP was a half-hearted joke; my "solutions" are my temporary conditions. As I said, I have no issues with mixing when done right but I don't know enough about the frogs to do so yet...so I'm looking to sell either/or/all of my frogs and to buy a 1.2 set for my other tank. Am I to understand that none of the "serious" froggers would be interested in this because I don't have a positive ID on my locales?




Anyway to move this thread back on track....I read that Imitators have been proven to be MONOGAMOUS breeders??

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Doesn't this mean that we should NOT keep such species in anything but 1.1 ratios ? Otherwise I can see the unaccepted ones having stress/psychological issues....especially if kept in trios; talk about a third wheel!

Are there other species besides imitators that are like this? Is there a list or reference somewhere so I know what frogs I should avoid keeping in trios?

EDIT: The link is titled weird, but it works.

 

[SmackoftheGods]

Am I to understand that none of the "serious" froggers would be interested in this because I don't have a positive ID on my locales?

No. There are "serious" keepers who have big hearts to take your frogs in and give them a home (in fact, seems like you've already had one offer). You ARE to understand that none of the "serious" froggers would be interested in breeding your frogs because they don't have a positive ID (may be interested in breeding your pumilio and keeping all the offspring separate from any other pumilio)....

my "solutions" are my temporary conditions.

So was mine....

Anyway to move this thread back on track....I read that Imitators have been proven to be MONOGAMOUS breeders??

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Doesn't this mean that we should NOT keep such species in anything but 1.1 ratios ? Otherwise I can see the unaccepted ones having stress/psychological issues....especially if kept in trios; talk about a third wheel!

Are there other species besides imitators that are like this? Is there a list or reference somewhere so I know what frogs I should avoid keeping in trios?

EDIT: The link is titled weird, but it works.

"Proven" is a weird word. And I'm pretty sure the term "monogamous" doesn't mean quite what you're thinking. I'm not sure I would expect imitators to keep a partner for life, but yes, it has been suggested that imitators will focus on one partner at a time (unlike, for instance, my fantastica, who breed with whatever frog is most interested at the time). I've discouraged people from keeping imitators in groups (and especially trios) for quite some time now....

My question is: how is this getting back on track? I thought you said you were working with pumilio and variabilis.

 

[Erikb3113]

the title is begging for negative attention

 

[Pumilo]

lol I love the reactions I got..

EDIT: The link is titled weird, but it works.

lol I love the reactions I got.. This is just wrong in more ways than I care to comment on.

the title is begging for negative attention

The link is titled weird, but it works.
the title is begging for negative attention
Agreed. The title is ill thought out and invites negative attention. If you really want help, ask a mod to shut this down and start a real adoption thread or a for sale ad.

 

[Woodsman]

This appears to be an advert and should be moved to the classifieds.

 

[EvilLost]

lololol when I said 'link is titled weird' I meant the link to the study on monogamous imitators silly!

@SmackoftheGods: I see your point about monogamous; I was thinking mate for life. As for how it is getting back on track, it is because I'm trying to find a good frog for my 29gal.....and I'm determining if its best to just sell all 3 of my frogs and buy a 1.2 set of a different species or not; from my initial understanding of that article I was thinking I should avoid imitators etc.


....sometimes these boards are really disappointing. I can't name a single other animal board that treats a topic with such hostility and negativity. Yea my original thread title was meant to catch some attention, but damn it was a joke....

I'll just post a "standard" for sale/trade ad sheesh!

 

[btcope]

Sorry, I was just trying to help dude. No hostility intended. My take is that if you want to mix your frogs, thats your business. I was only concerned that you may be selling "cristobals" when that's not what you have. I hate to see people get duped.

I offered what I have to help. I don't know what else you're looking for?

-brett

 

[SmackoftheGods]

lololol when I said 'link is titled weird' I meant the link to the study on monogamous imitators silly!

@SmackoftheGods: I see your point about monogamous; I was thinking mate for life. As for how it is getting back on track, it is because I'm trying to find a good frog for my 29gal.....and I'm determining if its best to just sell all 3 of my frogs and buy a 1.2 set of a different species or not; from my initial understanding of that article I was thinking I should avoid imitators etc.


....sometimes these boards are really disappointing. I can't name a single other animal board that treats a topic with such hostility and negativity. Yea my original thread title was meant to catch some attention, but damn it was a joke....

I'll just post a "standard" for sale/trade ad sheesh!

I generally advise not keeping Ranitomeya in 1.2 trios in general.... Many Ranitomeya don't exhibit the same monogamous tendencies that imitators do, but that doesn't mean that in a 1.2 setting there will not be competition for sexual partners. Pumilio often do well in 1.2 trios, but I doubt if your 29 gallon is well suited to accomodate such a trio (IMO, it would be INCREDIBLY difficult to set up a 29 gallon that is well suited to accomodate a trio of pumilio).

There is a fact that I think you may be over looking, and it may be very disappointing to you. Whether or not it seems fair, the frogs you have are only worth of what those you're offering think that worth is. Because your frogs have an ambiguous history at best, the value that other froggers are likely to give your frogs is rather low. I suspect it's unlikely that many people would be interested in paying what you believe your pumilio to be worth. I also suspect that it's unlikely that many people would be interested in trading, for your pumilio, their frogs that _do_ have a documented lineage. Point is, I suspect you could give them away (Brett has already volunteered to take your variabilis), or maybe sell them at a very reasonable price, but you shouldn't expect a full trade of a trio for a trio, or to make enough money to buy a trio of the frogs you're looking for (I'm not saying it _won't_ happen, but if you _expect_ it to happen I suspect there's a high probability of disappointment).

Some thoughts....

 

[EvilLost]

I didn't expect to sell them for the same price as frogs with known heritage....but I am also not necessarily looking for frogs with known heritage, either.


I'm fine with trading my higher value frogs for lower value frogs or throwing some cash in the mix...but no, I have no intention of giving away the frogs or selling them at some ridiculous price just because their locale can't be guaranteed. I'm sure I can find other more casual froggers who don't care about locales or don't know the locales of their frogs either....I have actually gotten quite a number of PMs


@Btcope: my response about hostility wasn't aimed at you

 

[EvilLost]

I generally advise not keeping Ranitomeya in 1.2 trios in general.... Many Ranitomeya don't exhibit the same monogamous tendencies that imitators do, but that doesn't mean that in a 1.2 setting there will not be competition for sexual partners. Pumilio often do well in 1.2 trios, but I doubt if your 29 gallon is well suited to accomodate such a trio (IMO, it would be INCREDIBLY difficult to set up a 29 gallon that is well suited to accomodate a trio of pumilio).

Some thoughts....

Thanks for this advice. That is what I was getting at with the article I posted earlier...it would seem that when keeping trios (or really any non 1:1 small population) we should avoid monogamous mating species. Although I was mistakenly thinking of "lifelong" partners, the damage is the same (although the duration is shorter) if that third frog is being ignored for a breeding season.


I don't follow your comment about the pumiliio's though...what do they require that other frogs don't ? Why would you say my tank isn't appropriate for them (specifically that is)?

 

[SmackoftheGods]

Thanks for this advice. That is what I was getting at with the article I posted earlier...it would seem that when keeping trios (or really any non 1:1 small population) we should avoid monogamous mating species. Although I was mistakenly thinking of "lifelong" partners, the damage is the same (although the duration is shorter) if that third frog is being ignored for a breeding season.


I don't follow your comment about the pumiliio's though...what do they require that other frogs don't ? Why would you say my tank isn't appropriate for them (specifically that is)?

The danger does not come from a frog being left out of breeding. The danger comes from aggression. It seems that when there is an odd man (woman) out that increases (significantly) the aggression occurring in the tank. I.e. In a 1.2 setting I find it rather common that both females will attempt to assert their dominance over the other to determine which will be able to breed with the male. This was happening not too long ago in my R. Benedicta tank. Aggression stopped entirely when I added another proven pair to my original 1.2 trio.

pumilio are obligate egg feeders. Unlike other frogs in the hobby, pumilio tads cannot be cared for outside of the tank (at least, without taking extreme measures). This means that the space requirements for pumilio are going to be significantly different than most other frogs. 10 gallons of space per frog is more than likely not enough. In regards to why I don't think your (specifically) tank would be adequate, it's simple. I question the ability of most old timer froggers to set up a 29 gallon tank that is suitable for a trio of pumilio (not saying it can't be done... I just haven't ever seen it). You haven't been in the hobby very long, meaning it's highly unlikely that you've developed the skills to set up that 29 gallon tank adequately for a trio of pumilio. I don't mean for you to take offense at this, we all started some where, but that's how I see it.