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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am just curious Why does everyone assume that anyone who has Frogs will raise and Sell Offspring...especially if they have a Mixed Species Tank.

Is there a Law which requires every Frogger to Sell Offspring that I am unaware of?
 

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What Tony said in regards to husbandry leading to inevitable breeding.

In addition, even the seemingly cold-hearted, antagonizing, alienating froggers here on the board tend to have a soft-spot (specifically for frogs... that's kind of why they keep them), so when good husbandry inevitably leads to breeding and eggs, many don't have the heart to destroy eggs or cull tadpoles/froglets (even from mixed tanks).
 

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I think I smell yet another mixing thread, hiding under a thinly veiled title.:rolleyes:
 
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This is an easy one - what are you going to do with 50 or 100 or 200 frogs after a few years. Remember they should all live 8-10, at least. What are you going to do with them all. One season a pair of E. tricolor produced over 300 froglets for me - what do you do with them all? Kill em? The only way to not breed them is to keep the sexes separate - otherwise it'll likely happen.

Best,

Chuck

I am just curious Why does everyone assume that anyone who has Frogs will raise and Sell Offspring...especially if they have a Mixed Species Tank.

Is there a Law which requires every Frogger to Sell Offspring that I am unaware of?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
No it is not about Mixing. It is about everyone assuming That People will breed and Sell.

So everyone is saying that everyone must own pairs?
Otherwise People are saying not all froggers are treating their frogs in a Humane way. No matter if they house them appropriately.

Are Froggers saying A person can not own a single frog or males only?
I have seen plenty of posts saying that many froggers keep more than 1 male in a tank.

When you sell juveniles in groups do you guarantee that it is a 1:1 Ratio so as to ensure proper husbandry?
So If I buy 3 Frogs at a Show or from a Breeder what do I do with the extra Males. Or do you breeders recommend not buying tadpoles and juveniles and only buying the more expensive guaranteed 1:1 Breeding Pairs? If someone accidentally gets 3 Males instead of a 1:2 Ratio do they have to sell the extra males or have to buy extra Tanks because a single big tank is not enough?

Another attitude I have seen on here and another PDF board is that people who allow the frogs to rear their offspring are treating them cruelly because they allow nature to run its course. Is the real reason that people advocate not allowing Nature to take it's course is to maximize the profits from your breeders?
 

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For most species proper husbandry inevitably leads to breeding, and a person can only keep so many of the offspring,
I would say this mostly,
my new 2.2 lamasi already have 4 trios of eggs in the tank and I know I'm certainly not keeping them all lol
 

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Another attitude I have seen on here and another PDF board is that people who allow the frogs to rear their offspring are treating them cruelly because they allow nature to run its course. Is the real reason that people advocate not allowing Nature to take it's course is to maximize the profits from your breeders?

This actually isn't letting "nature take it's course" as it is an artificial system and often the results are a result of the husbandry used to care for the animals... for example, in non-phytotelmata depositing species, the space available for the tadpoles is often much smaller than that found in the wild, and the fat reserves and heavy feedings with the reduced energy out due to the smaller space allows for a faster production of a second, third and fourth clutch which further impacts the available space. While tadpoles are known to be cannibalistic, this is often a result of insufficient protein in the deposition sites in the wild and cannibalism can reduced or totally circumvented by feeding the tadpoles a diet high in animal protein..

In phytotelmata depositing species, it has been shown that increasing the deposition sites increases the population density (with possibly ventrimaculatus as an exception due to social parasitism) as there is less competition for deposition sites but again, due to the husbandry practices, we see a surplus of animals produced versus available deposition sites. Again, in the non-obligate egg feeders, we see lack of protein as a cause for cannibalism....

So you can't argue that "nature" took it's course.... as frogs are usually kept in systems that encourage unnatural breeding cycles, are fed to excess (obese frogs) to enable unnatural breeding cycles and often are unaturally deficient in one or more nutrients due to the supplements....
 

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No it is not about Mixing. It is about everyone assuming That People will breed and Sell.

So everyone is saying that everyone must own pairs?
Otherwise People are saying not all froggers are treating their frogs in a Humane way. No matter if they house them appropriately.

Are Froggers saying A person can not own a single frog or males only?
I have seen plenty of posts saying that many froggers keep more than 1 male in a tank.

When you sell juveniles in groups do you guarantee that it is a 1:1 Ratio so as to ensure proper husbandry?
So If I buy 3 Frogs at a Show or from a Breeder what do I do with the extra Males. Or do you breeders recommend not buying tadpoles and juveniles and only buying the more expensive guaranteed 1:1 Breeding Pairs? If someone accidentally gets 3 Males instead of a 1:2 Ratio do they have to sell the extra males or have to buy extra Tanks because a single big tank is not enough?
No. We're saying that a vast majority don't own single frogs. When people get frogs and they hear they can have more than one in there, they typically think that, as a show animal, more is going to be better than less.

While there are those who are completely content having one or two frogs as show animals, most people who actually frequent the forum are not. They have multiple species, and they actively try to breed. Just look around the forum and compare the ones that say "do you think this is a pair" or "how do I start breeding," or froglet pictures to the threads that talk about their all male viv.

Another attitude I have seen on here and another PDF board is that people who allow the frogs to rear their offspring are treating them cruelly because they allow nature to run its course. Is the real reason that people advocate not allowing Nature to take it's course is to maximize the profits from your breeders?
I have not seen this attitude at _all_. Some people recommend pulling because there is a greater success rate when pulling certain species (and usually when we're making recommendations about tad care (like pulling or leaving them in) the poster has asked "hey, what do you think is best,") but I've never seen anyone looked down on for leaving tads in the tank. In fact, I recommend to everyone that, although they can be pulled, imitator clade tadpoles should be left in the tank, I've never been bad mouthed because of it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
This is an easy one - what are you going to do with 50 or 100 or 200 frogs after a few years. Remember they should all live 8-10, at least. What are you going to do with them all. One season a pair of E. tricolor produced over 300 froglets for me - what do you do with them all? Kill em? The only way to not breed them is to keep the sexes separate - otherwise it'll likely happen.

Best,

Chuck
Did you get into the Hobby because You Love the Animals or was it to sell?
I have several Ideas what could be done with the Offspring
Donate them to Schools..
Donate them to Education Centers
Donate them to People
You are not forced to do anything with your Offspring you choose how you want to get rid of them.

I am Currently working with River Bend Nature Center here in Wichita Falls to House my Collection of Frogs and Geckos so everyone can enjoy them. I will continue to buy all supplies. I will maintain the Tanks. I will feed the Animals.

My Collection currently consists of 4 White's Blue Phase Tree Frogs, 1 Red Eyed Tree Frog, 2 Panamanian Dendrobates azureus, 4 Costa Rican Dendrobates auratus, 2 Bribron's Geckos, 1 Chinese Cave Gecko, 1 Leopard Gecko, 1 Marble Gecko, 2 Kochi Day Gecko, 1 Gold Dust Day Gecko, 2 Golden Geckos, 1 Lined Leaf Tail Gecko, 1 Lined Gecko, 2 Frog Eyed Geckos, and 2 Flying Geckos.

My Goal is to have one of the largest collection in the Area. I love the New MOLA at FT Worth Zoo yet I am disappointed it has only about 4 Species of the over 100 Species of Dendrobates.

If they do not I am going to get a Place and Open my own education center. We do not have the luxury of having a Large Zoo close by. Our School system does not allow children to travel 150+ miles to go to zoos and Many people can not take their kids. People find it creepy to bring their family over to some strangers house and fork over Money to view a private collection.

Here are a few shots of my collection which I hope to be Hosted soon By River Bend Nature Center

My Golden Gecko Tank with New Universal Habit Background


And here are all the other Tanks, Racks, Lights, not to Mention a Mistking Ultimate Misting System with Seconds Timer that will also go


So should I under most peoples logic just open my Own Place and Have people pay me so I can profit because I decided to get into the Hobby and want it to grow instead of Letting a Nonprofit Education Center reap the Benefits?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I have not seen this attitude at _all_. Some people recommend pulling because there is a greater success rate when pulling certain species (and usually when we're making recommendations about tad care (like pulling or leaving them in) the poster has asked "hey, what do you think is best,") but I've never seen anyone looked down on for leaving tads in the tank. In fact, I recommend to everyone that, although they can be pulled, imitator clade tadpoles should be left in the tank, I've never been bad mouthed because of it.
Not to start a war here but This is a Direct Quote from a Board Member

"When you say that you just leave the tadpoles in there to starve... I mean come on... that's horribly inhumane."
 

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Not to start a war here but This is a Direct Quote from a Board Member

"When you say that you just leave the tadpoles in there to starve... I mean come on... that's horribly inhumane."
Starvation is considered to be inhumane, so if you are letting them starve as a method of population control then they are right.. you are artificially depriving them of food.
 

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I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Where are you getting this from? There is no group of us on the board running around threatening people, telling them they have to sell their frogs! You think there is some sort of Froggy Third Reich?! "You! Over there! You must sell your froglets! Up against the wall!"
If you are keeping your frogs RIGHT and giving them a proper environment, and decent husbandry then eventually they will try to breed. You can pull them or you can let the parents raise them. I really haven't seen anyone slamming anyone else for not pulling the eggs and tads. If you provide proper husbandry and eventually produce froglets, you get to do whatever you want with them. If you want to keep 40 of the same species, bully for you! Enjoy them! Really, that's just fine with me. If you want to donate them, that's great! My hat's off to you! And I decide to trade some of mine for a different species, back off. That's MY choice and my right.
And yes. I, for one, think it's very cruel and unusual punishment to keep a single frog alone it's entire life. How would you like to be kept alone and isolated from all of humanity your entire life? Why would anyone purposefully deny them the pleasure of a relationship?
What if someone ends up with a group of three males? If they get along well, that's just fine if that's what they want. Do I think they are missing out on an enriching part of the hobby? In my opinion, yes. Do I think his frogs would be even happier with mates? In my opinion, yes. I cringe at the thought of going through my life without my wife and I won't make my frogs do it.
 

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. Do I think his frogs would be even happier with mates? In my opinion, yes. I cringe at the thought of going through my life without my wife and I won't make my frogs do it.
Ease up Doug, you are anthropomorphising. Dendrobatids are at best sub-social and do not show any signs of requiring stimulation from another of thier species. They are not a social species.

Subsocial behavior is "postovipositional (after egg laying) parental care that promotes survival,growth and development of the offspring"
(Tallamy & Wood 1986). Subsocial behavior can take the form of egg or
nymphal and larval guarding, the construction of simple or elaborate nests, and provisioning of offspring with food collected by the parents.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Where are you getting this from? There is no group of us on the board running around threatening people, telling them they have to sell their frogs! You think there is some sort of Froggy Third Reich?! "You! Over there! You must sell your froglets! Up against the wall!"
I never said that..
 
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