[tclipse]

Bored in class so I thought I'd stir up the pot a little...

I've seen a few arguments that one should pick the frog first, then build the tank around the frog. There are also threads that say, 'help me pick a frog for this tank.' What's your take, and why?

I can see the "frog first" if you're talking arboreals vs. terrestrials, or thumbs vs. tincs... but otherwise, does it really matter?

My belief is that every frog should get the "luxuries" that they would come across in the wild, or the closest equivalent we can provide- a variety of microfauna, breeding sites, places to hide, leaf litter (though true arboreals wouldn't come across much leaf litter, we see it is still beneficial to their captive husbandry) etc.

I give all of my frogs, terrestrial or arboreal, the "pumilio treatment"... some sort of clay background & more clay mixed into the substrate, leaf litter, several iso & spring species, multiple broms & film pots per frog (coco's/hides instead for terrestrials), plants for security, and some type of vine/wood to increase useable space.

By this standard, I feel like the only difference between my tanks is the frog that goes in it.... with the exception of the vertical/horizontal stance of the tank itself, and minor details to increase floorspace for terrestrials or climbing space for arboreals.

The "frog first" argument says that I'm doing something wrong.... am I? I think the "pick your frog first" argument makes it seem okay to put tincs in a tank with a piece of pothos and a coco hut, without leaf litter or microfauna, because they can get by without it.

I realize I'm taking the statement at a literal level, but I'm sure some new hobbyists who hear it do also... and then think it's okay to take the easy route with the hardier terrestrials & thumbnails.

Like I said, bored in class, take it for what it's worth... just thought I'd challenge a statement I've heard more than once that doesn't really fly with me.... bottom line, I think all of our frogs deserve a king's share, whether they need it to live or not. IMO, that's the very definition of helping our frogs to "thrive" and not only "survive."

/rant

 

[SmackoftheGods]

I think you're coming from an idealist standpoint. Which is awesome if you put it to use in your personal collection. I also like to recommend that all frogs receive the "pumilio treatment."

That said, yes, it does matter. For instance, I've done research, and I've asked around to a lot of people who have specialized in years for thumbnails, and there are little tricks that should probably be considered between imitators and fantasticus. For me, pumilio should be provided with plenty of both vertical and horizontal space, and with large bromeliads so dense, that broad leaves overlap. If I'm going to do that I need to find places to mount these on. It's easy for someone new to see similarities that arboreal species need, but over time you may find nuances that affect the way you build a tank species to species. The same works with terrestrial.

I think it's also important to consider that many people don't go above and beyond and provide their tincs with the "pumilio treatment." I've seen a number of people in the past who have set up a horizontal tank and then asked "what should I put in here? I was thinking imitators...."

I've also found, that when thinking "I'm going to get a new frog, but I don't know what," people will arbitrarily set up a tank and often do a half-assed job. I think that if someone decides on what frog they're goingto get, and does the research, they tend to get a lot more excited about the frog they're going to get and spend a lot more effort putting attention toward the details within their tanks.

Some thoughts.

 

[Wallace Grover]

I think that you can safely say the only thing really that makes a viv appropriate for one species or inappropriate for another is whether it is horizontal or a vert...

 

[SmackoftheGods]

I think that you can safely say the only thing really that makes a viv appropriate for one species or inappropriate for another is whether it is horizontal or a vert...

The _only_ thing that makes a viv appropriate for one species or inappropriate for another is whether it is horizontal or vertical? I have a vertical tank set up for my H. valerioi. It has no broms and only broad leafed plants. It also has a large pond that takes up 2/3s of my floorspace. Would you recommend me using this same style tank for my benedicta?

I have a vert tank for my lowland fantasticus with some floorspace and no standing water feature. It has leaf litter, a few small-leafed orchids, but is almost excluslively bromeliads. Would you recommend this for my H. valerioi or a RETF? I mean, it's a vertically oriented tank and the tree frogs _are_ arboreal.

Do you really mean to suggest that the ONLY factor to take into consideration when building the tank is whether or not the frog is an arboreal or terrestrial frog?

 

[Wallace Grover]

The _only_ thing that makes a viv appropriate for one species or inappropriate for another is whether it is horizontal or vertical? I have a vertical tank set up for my H. valerioi. It has no broms and only broad leafed plants. It also has a large pond that takes up 2/3s of my floorspace. Would you recommend me using this same style tank for my benedicta?

I have a vert tank for my lowland fantasticus with some floorspace and no standing water feature. It has leaf litter, a few small-leafed orchids, but is almost excluslively bromeliads. Would you recommend this for my H. valerioi or a RETF? I mean, it's a vertically oriented tank and the tree frogs _are_ arboreal.

Do you really mean to suggest that the ONLY factor to take into consideration when building the tank is whether or not the frog is an arboreal or terrestrial frog?

Speaking dart-frog wise, yes. (I assumed people knew I was talking about darts, since this is a dart-forum, sorry!) I cannot think of any particular PDF that has any special viv-related needs other than the standard vert and standard horizontal...

 

[PeanutbuttER]

Frog first, except don't literally buy the frog first. Pick the frog, build the tank, then get your frogs.

 

[tclipse]

That said, yes, it does matter. For instance, I've done research, and I've asked around to a lot of people who have specialized in years for thumbnails, and there are little tricks that should probably be considered between imitators and fantasticus. For me, pumilio should be provided with plenty of both vertical and horizontal space, and with large bromeliads so dense, that broad leaves overlap. If I'm going to do that I need to find places to mount these on. It's easy for someone new to see similarities that arboreal species need, but over time you may find nuances that affect the way you build a tank species to species. The same works with terrestrial.

Some thoughts.

Naturally this is true, but it seems like those are things that can be added after the viv is already "built" to accommodate the frogs going into it..

For example, I have a few new vivs built, planted, & seeded with microfauna. I'll be patient and wait for something I like to become available, and then take care of "the little things" to accommodate that frog. For example, if I'm buying some Anthonyi for a terrestrial tank, I'll throw a nice broad-leaved plant in with what's already there. For pumilio and most thumbnails... throw in a few extra broms. Another- different thumbs have been known to prefer different film canister placement/color, which is incredibly easy to fix. I don't consider those minor tweaks the same thing as "building the viv."

For me, the only difference between putting species 1, 2, or 3 in Viv A, B, or C are those minor changes that cater to a certain specie's behavior/preferences. The end result is the same, even though I "built the vivs first..."

I guess I'm just calling out the statement as overly generalized, easily misinterpreted, and not really representative of the concept it's trying to convey.. which is simply that different frogs have similar needs, but different preferences, and those should be catered to as well.

 

[VicSkimmr]

For me, I always say choose the frog first and then build the viv because I choose plants based on the frog.

If I was building a tank for vanzoliniis (which my display was originally going to be for), I wouldn't choose a bunch of broms that are heavily speckled/spotted because it would be easy for the frogs to get lost visually. On the same token, I would choose plants that are generally bright colored (yellows, bright greens) so that the frogs would "pop" since they're primarily black.

If I was building a tank for mint terribilis, I wouldn't choose dainty plants that would get trampled and I would choose darker plants since the frogs stand out so much anyway.

My intermedius tank is virtually all green so the orange on the frogs shows up a lot better.


I just think that if you have a frog in mind when you're designing the tank, in the end you'll get a better result. And I won't deny it, my plant choices are based primarily so that the frogs are easy to photograph. I don't want to have to deal with taking a picture of an orange frog on a pink plant, and I always want the background of a pic to be uncluttered.

 

[poison beauties]

Whether you get the frog first or the viv keep in mind its the frog that should decide the footprint and layout to the viv. If you get the frogs first no big deal if your doing everything the right way as they will be in QT for about 60-90 days

The only thing you will need is your feeders in place as well as a proper qt setup.

Michael

 

[motydesign]

im kinda with Smack on this one, i build a viv for what i know is going in it and do not see that a viv should be built for any other sp. that being said common sense can be used. i built a lowland fant viv (which i have and am literally just waiting until i find them) but if that fell through and i had to stick vents in it, i woudnt feel bad one bit, its a GREAT tank.
but would i stick the P. terr. mints in it that i want??? HELL NO!!! there is a grey area here and i see the point of each! if you build with a plan and for a reason (a particular sp.) the build will be that much better (aim small miss small), then if things change and a frog of your dreams show up that is SUITED for the tank, then yes that works.

 

[Ed]

My belief is that every frog should get the "luxuries" that they would come across in the wild, or the closest equivalent we can provide- a variety of microfauna, breeding sites, places to hide, leaf litter (though true arboreals wouldn't come across much leaf litter, we see it is still beneficial to their captive husbandry) etc.

True arboreals would come across pockets of leaf litter as epiphytic gardens will capture and hold onto at least some level of leaf litter.. Not all individuals may have access to it, but those inhabiting the gardens should have access to it in the wild.


Ed