[Guest]

Let me first say that i am in no way going to be starting a mized tank of any kind and dont planing on making hybrids...I have noticed that everyone here is 100% against hybridizing, but i was wondering why? The only things i can think of is the possibility of deformities, or everyone would like to preserve the spiecies as is, or that the tads will just not make it or develop. Remember this is just a question out of curiosity.

-Bryan

 

[Guest]

Its an issue of keeping lines seperate. I doubt many people have ever even thought about the differences between an afghan leopard gecko vs. a pakistan leopard gecko, but I can assure you that no wild leopard gecko morph represents as giant orange genetic mess. Hybridization may be acceptable on some levels (like if the wild populations hybridize), but we have enough work on our hands breeding out what we have.

 

[Guest]

I think the most common response is that it's unnatural. In nature the different species would never meet so they would never breed.

Besides, who wants mutant frogs!

 

[bbrock]

Hybridization leads to frogs that no longer resemble wild frogs in either appearance or behavior. History in other breeding hobbies has shown that uncontrolled hybridizing creates market forces that lead to the total, or near dissapearance of wild type specimens in the hobby. The very animals that got people interested int he hobby are lost. The culture of the hobby shifts from one of scientific curiousity about nature and natural marvels to one based on profit and ego as people strive to create whatever sells the best or is the most bizzare. This is a fact in many other breeding-based hobbies. Thankfully the PDF hobby is still dominated by people who don't want to see this happen with frogs. We like a hobby that celebrates the amazing characteristics of these animals as nature has forged them rather than what we could transform them into through genetic experiementation.

 

[mindcrash]

These frogs are beautiful enough on their own, no need to hybridize.

 

[steelcube]

These frogs are beautiful enough on their own, no need to hybridize.

Agree... there are many variety of colors and species that occur naturally...

 

[Schism]

I have had the curiosity of this issue, but for a different scenario. I know a lot or most of the people on the board intend or do breed/raise the eggs/tads. For those people who have no intentions on raising the eggs/tads is everyone still against that? I fully agree that creating hybrids is bad, but mixing in general I don't see a problem with. When I say mixing I'm refering solely to different morphs and species of poison arrow frogs.
Given that they are all either thumbs or normal sized pdfs, are cb's/quarantined/clean and they have plenty of room, what is the problem if there is one?
I plan to have a 90ish gallon tank with at least two species of PDF's. However I do not have any intention of raising any young. If I do get the urge I'll put the pairs in their own tanks.

 

[bbrock]

I have had the curiosity of this issue, but for a different scenario. I know a lot or most of the people on the board intend or do breed/raise the eggs/tads. For those people who have no intentions on raising the eggs/tads is everyone still against that? I fully agree that creating hybrids is bad, but mixing in general I don't see a problem with. When I say mixing I'm refering solely to different morphs and species of poison arrow frogs.

Mixing frogs is not wrong, it just takes a bit of skill and experience to do it right. On top of the normal challenges of keeping PDF, you are adding the potential for interspecific interactions that may not all be good which is why I feel that it's best to get knowledgeable and comfortable with the species individually before putting them into groups.

The other problem is when mixed groups accidentally breed. Froggers are often reluctant to cull hybrid or unknown frogs. Hybrids might not be obvious by appearance and it just raises the risk that the frogs will get mistakenly mixed back into the "pure" population later. But it is possible to mix species that don't risk producing hybrids. It all just takes skill but often (and I'm not saying this is always the case) the motivation to have mixed tanks is to be able to keep more species without having to set up more vivs., particularly when beginning in the hobby. I personally think that's a mistake.

 

[Schism]

That is what I thought the response would be. Personally I am planning on the tank with tincs and azureus, So basically just different morphs. There won't be many frogs for the tank, But I have another tank ready for any potential problems...

 

[bbrock]

That is what I thought the response would be. Personally I am planning on the tank with tincs and azureus, So basically just different morphs. There won't be many frogs for the tank, But I have another tank ready for any potential problems...

Do you plan to destroy any eggs that might appear? Personally, tinc group mixed tanks worry me more than any others because of the high probability of producing confusing looking hybrids. If eggs are destroyed, it's not a big deal but I've heard people say things like, they will wait to see if the offspring look like hybrids... You can't necessarily tell a hybrid just by looking.

 

[Schism]

If i see em I'll destroy them. Actually when I see them I might change my mind on this whole not raising them thing, but I'll pair them off if I do.
I used to breed chameleons, I know I couldn't have destroyed eggs then, I don't know if it'll be the same this time. But like I said I have another tank ready for breeders if the time comes.

 

[Guest]

I am considering keeping G&B auratus with leucs. Since it's a show tank and I'm not breeding, any eggs would be "donated" to my saltwater tank.

 

[Ed Martin]

I agree with Brent. In a well planted large enclosure, it is likely that you will miss eggs. If you set up a vivarium of both sexes with species or morphs that can interbreed, you should be prepared to not only cull eggs, but euthanize tads and froglets as well.
Sometimes that is tough to do......


You could keep all animals of the same sex.
Ed

 

[Guest]

you should be prepared to not only cull eggs, but euthanize tads and froglets as well.
Sometimes that is tough to do......


Ed

Good point.

 

[Ed]

If there are no water features for tadpole deposition sites, the situation becomes moot as the tadpoles would be unable to survive. This does mean no water features and probably no bromeliads.

Ed

 

[Schism]

That is a good point. I plan to have a fair amount of water, I might reconsider the species that I ultimately combine.

 

[EDs Fly Meat]

My issue with hybridization

My personal issue with hybridization is people cashing in on unusual hybrids. Without question, many of us value our hobby, and I believe that it is a unique one. Our community is a small one, and the last thing this hobby needs is a black eye from someone out to make a buck by being dishonest. There are a lot of new hobbyists out there who make some great contributions to this hobby. It would tick me off to no end to see someone dupped into spending a few dollars more for a "reticulated, green striped, azure spotted, splash back." When all they are really getting is a mule. Thank God, this is not a common practice (knocking on wood). Our hobby doesn't need the bad press.
Dave

 

[Scott]

Re: My issue with hybridization

Just a matter of time unless we stay on top of it.

s

... Thank God, this is not a common practice (knocking on wood). Our hobby doesn't need the bad press.
Dave

 

[TimsViv]

While hybridization may still be at bay, I would suggest that selective breeding is already taking a strong foot hold.

Examples would be:
- no spot Leucs
- small spot Leucs
- albinism in several species
- red morph Galacs
- 90% orange Galacs

I'm sure that there are more. I would also wonder how many of the Tinc morphs are actually represented in the wild?

Tim

 

[devin mac]

While hybridization may still be at bay, I would suggest that selective breeding is already taking a strong foot hold.

Examples would be:
- no spot Leucs
- small spot Leucs
- albinism in several species
- red morph Galacs
- 90% orange Galacs

I sure that there are more. I would also wonder how many of the Tinc morphs are actually represented in the wild?

Tim

you beat me to it. a lot of folks on this forum will rant and rave about the dangers of hybridization, and meddling with genetics, selective brreding, etc... but then go ahead and pay premium for fine spotted azureus in another thread...

it's gonna happen and there isnt anything that you or i can do about it, frankly. like i said in anotehr thread today, look at the ball python market. that's really done crazy in the ast five or ten years. if you don't think so, go check out http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com. do i like or dislike this state of affairs. it doesn't affect me either way, really. the animals are going to be just as beautiful and their behavior will be no less interesting. are you likely to see everytihng that is in the hobby out there in the wild? no, probably not. but i bet that's already happened.

i guess i just find it amusing that there is a decent level of hypocrasy involved here... anyone else?

P.S. natural or not... this is a beautiful creature