Nope! Just relaxing and enjoying the last day of the weekend.
what is the deal with mixing frogs?
so i am extremely new to the whole dart frog thing (in fact i don't own any yet and i'm doing research to see if i want to keep them) and i've seen a whole lot of rage about mixing frogs. what i haven't seen though, is a concrete reason why people are so against it. i don't have any feelings for or against this, i just want to know why people don't like it so much.
isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such? in the shrimp breeding industry, people breed crazy mixed shrimps all the time until they get a nice one and then breed it out until they get a "new" kind of shrimp. what is the different between this and doing the same with frogs?
people breed things to get better color and traits they like.
there are people who like to keep wild varieties of shrimps and those who like the new fancy ones. i guess what i'm asking is why people are so against it in dart frogs, but don't bat an eye with other animals.
isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such? in the shrimp breeding industry, people breed crazy mixed shrimps all the time until they get a nice one and then breed it out until they get a "new" kind of shrimp. what is the different between this and doing the same with frogs?
people breed things to get better color and traits they like.
there are people who like to keep wild varieties of shrimps and those who like the new fancy ones. i guess what i'm asking is why people are so against it in dart frogs, but don't bat an eye with other animals.
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Does anybody else find this laugh out loud funny?i don't think i've been arguing with people. i asked an honest question and got some pretty snide responses and some dueling between others i didn't respond to. my original question was why hybridization in other animals is not frowned upon like it is in dart frogs. it seems only natural to compare the views on hybridization in different hobbies and with other animals (and similar ones like snakes). you know it just as well as i do. you're just attacking me because you made a mistake and you need to save face.
i have no tried to start conflict, but when you attacked me like you did, i felt i had to correct you. i know you're trying to cover your own fail here by attacking me even more with your latest post, and i understand.
Seems like you're just running from thread to thread wanting to start arguments with everyone. Always affirming your negative position doesn't really add anything to a resolution of the issues.
Just seems like you're looking for someone to kick around.
Richard.
Just seems like you're looking for someone to kick around.
Richard.
Nope! Just relaxing and enjoying the last day of the weekend.
Not at all. In the other post, I just pointed out that every frog in the hobby is the off spring of wild collected frogs.
seems to me that you have been the one trying to cause conflict. every post you have made here has been a snide comment or attempt to start a flame war. you're first comment in here was an attempt to start something. sorry i offended you by asking a question, but please feel free to not respond to my posts from here on out.Does anybody else find this laugh out loud funny?
And I don't really believe asking for facts to back up a statement is taking a negative position.
Let's not hijack the thread, that is what thunderdome is for
Let's not hijack the thread, that is what thunderdome is for
This is not a novel thought nor argument on Db. If you need an answer (since you asked the question many times, I assume you're desperate to find one), I suggest falling in love with the seacrh function on this site as much as you seem to love posting negatives.
Good luck in your search, Richard.
Good luck in your search, Richard.
Not at all. In the other post, I just pointed out that every frog in the hobby is the off spring of wild collected frogs.
they did... once. a t-rex existed too, but they don't now.I made no mistake, as there have been white tigers in the wild. Which you said there were not. Then even said there were and one was shot in the 1950's. If it was shot it did then exist.
anyway, let's just stop with this. i will admit i was carried away and have strayed a little from my original question. i still think it is fair to compare this hobby to other hobbies.well said. i can understand trying to conserve the animals as they are. it's just too bad they may end up only existing in zoos.I think that this is a valid question, and my personal answer is not why do we frown on hybrid dart frogs, but rather, why DON'T we frown on other hybrids. I do not work with hybrids, whether it be fish or other reptiles/amphibians. I feel the same way with them as with any dart frog.
However, I think that the conservation factor needs to come into play here. As it has in many livebearer and cichlid species, these captive populations may become the final resting place for some of these species and their various forms. I think we owe it to the various ecological forces that determined these frogs to help keep their lineages strong and true. In 100 years, will we still have viable populations of all of these frogs? Will they still be true to their current phenotype/genotype? Probably not. But that's not a reason to throw your hands up in the air and say "well, then hell...let's just do whatever". We're doing a great job killing them off in the wild. Let's try not to do the same thing here.
Oh shit!! Now you did it.seems to me that you have been the one trying to cause conflict. every post you have made here has been a snide comment or attempt to start a flame war. you're first comment in here was an attempt to start something. sorry i offended you by asking a question, but please feel free to not respond to my posts from here on out.
I think that this is a valid question, and my personal answer is not why do we frown on hybrid dart frogs, but rather, why DON'T we frown on other hybrids. I do not work with hybrids, whether it be fish or other reptiles/amphibians. I feel the same way with them as with any dart frog.
However, I think that the conservation factor needs to come into play here. As it has in many livebearer and cichlid species, these captive populations may become the final resting place for some of these species and their various forms. I think we owe it to the various ecological forces that determined these frogs to help keep their lineages strong and true. In 100 years, will we still have viable populations of all of these frogs? Will they still be true to their current phenotype/genotype? Probably not. But that's not a reason to throw your hands up in the air and say "well, then hell...let's just do whatever". We're doing a great job killing them off in the wild. Let's try not to do the same thing here.
I don't own the D11s or the land that is being cleared with them. In order to conserve the frogs, you need to restore their habitat. So exactly who is the we you speak of?
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. I'm not even sure why the various parts of what I said were highlighted, to be frank. However, the general tone is exactly what I was speaking against, there. "It's too late for the habitat, so why bother?" It's not a very good outlook to have. Habitat loss is not the only detriment to these frogs. Far from it. Reintroduction is also not yet out of the picture. Are they going to want my frogs for such an undertaking? Certainly not. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't care.I don't own the D11s or the land that is being cleared with them. In order to conserve the frogs, you need to restore their habitat. So exactly who is the we you speak of?
If you're wanting to nit-pick because I use "we" rather than "these people, those people, etc." please don't bother. It should be clear what I meant. But if you really want to get into it, don't we all share in their loss, whether you've got the chainsaw in your hand or not?
Then you haven't learned anything anybody has said to you. Then you wonder why people are being hard on you. I am not the only one that has told you this isn't other hobbies this is Dendrobates/dart frogs it is a hobby on to itself. It has separate ideologies then other hobbies just by looking at the hybrid issue itself (not including mixed tanks). It's not snakes, shrimp, fish, reefs, cross-stitch, wood working.i still think it is fair to compare this hobby to other hobbies
Then you still say it's fair to compare? Even Scott has explained the thread topic to you to you and you argue with him, and he has a mixed tank(from my understanding) and you still continue with the argumentative attitude. Either your hear to fight and argue or thick headed. You have wasted a lot of time fighting in a thread that you could have spent reading and researching on how to care for single species tanks. Can mix tanks be successful? Yes. Should they be done by someone that has little expierance in the hobby? NO. How many people have told you this? Enough for you get the point, that YOU don't have the expierance and the knowledge to be successful with it. They have explained the thoughts on both sides of the hybrid issue as well.
So continue researching and learning, and forget about comparing this hobby to other hobbies. Again what other people do in other hobbies is good for THEM and works for THEM. What they do there does not apply here. To find out what works here use the search button here and find some knowledgeable hobbyist here that you can ask questions and advice.
Let this thread die as I will with this last response. Good luck to you in your research and learning.
Anyone see any good movies lately?
John
John
I normally just browse tending to enjoy threads that focus the building of tanks and such but I some in the conversation it have gotten personal and may have confused beginners in the process of a passionate and lively debate.
First I would say that the conversation would be more helpful if broken in to several smaller points.
In regards to mixing different types of frog locations etc. Ultimately I think there have been many arguments back and forth as how it may or may not negatively impact the frogs involved there are articles that suggest it having a negative effect already link in the thread . So far no one on has offered up a way that mixing can or has hypothetically or anecdotally helped the frogs involved. So while some are saying that they through skill may have been able to overcome inherits potentially problems none have said of any benefit to the frogs involved.
So can you mix frogs? The consensus appears to range from no to maybe but you might have problems without a potential upside.
My conclusion is with out an upside why risk potential or inevitable problems solely for the reason that we would like to have more frogs in less tanks. It seems to me that it is placing our desires over practical care of these wonderful animals.
Second in regards to hybrids. Our hobby is small, many have concerns that with the limited numbers of frogs in the hobby to take some frogs out of a already limited gene pool for selfish reasons is not having the animal we find so amazing best interests at heart. These hybrids might have other inherited defects that we don't even know about at this point like being sterile etc. The hobby is better served from a breeding stand point to have a large gene pool from the collection sites and species with out muddying the waters or creating frogs that could cause harm to these gene pools. So with the hobby best interests as a whole I would not create hybrids.
Third question raised in the argument being. You are going to mix frogs why does every one care?
Most people in the hobby follow guideline or rules for the care of these animal. When a hobbyist disregards with for purely selfish reasons it is easy for other to imagine you disregarding other guidelines. The example being you have read article about how mixing frogs is bad for the frogs but do it anyway. Then you know you should not let their offspring live but do it any way. At that point to an outsider all we know is that you have not had the hobby best interest at heart so far so it is not that big of leap to imagine you selling the hybrids and causing problems for the hobby as a whole.
If folks are interested in hybrids because they feel they have run out way to enjoy their frogs and the hobby speaking at schools, boy scouts and after school programs can be very rewarding.
I would remind every one that which every side of the argument you are this board will be more productive if we maintain a friendly tone. Also give each other the benefit of the doubt that we love the frogs that we are privileged to have in our care and we will listen to each points with a open but still appropriately skeptical mind.
Evan
First I would say that the conversation would be more helpful if broken in to several smaller points.
In regards to mixing different types of frog locations etc. Ultimately I think there have been many arguments back and forth as how it may or may not negatively impact the frogs involved there are articles that suggest it having a negative effect already link in the thread . So far no one on has offered up a way that mixing can or has hypothetically or anecdotally helped the frogs involved. So while some are saying that they through skill may have been able to overcome inherits potentially problems none have said of any benefit to the frogs involved.
So can you mix frogs? The consensus appears to range from no to maybe but you might have problems without a potential upside.
My conclusion is with out an upside why risk potential or inevitable problems solely for the reason that we would like to have more frogs in less tanks. It seems to me that it is placing our desires over practical care of these wonderful animals.
Second in regards to hybrids. Our hobby is small, many have concerns that with the limited numbers of frogs in the hobby to take some frogs out of a already limited gene pool for selfish reasons is not having the animal we find so amazing best interests at heart. These hybrids might have other inherited defects that we don't even know about at this point like being sterile etc. The hobby is better served from a breeding stand point to have a large gene pool from the collection sites and species with out muddying the waters or creating frogs that could cause harm to these gene pools. So with the hobby best interests as a whole I would not create hybrids.
Third question raised in the argument being. You are going to mix frogs why does every one care?
Most people in the hobby follow guideline or rules for the care of these animal. When a hobbyist disregards with for purely selfish reasons it is easy for other to imagine you disregarding other guidelines. The example being you have read article about how mixing frogs is bad for the frogs but do it anyway. Then you know you should not let their offspring live but do it any way. At that point to an outsider all we know is that you have not had the hobby best interest at heart so far so it is not that big of leap to imagine you selling the hybrids and causing problems for the hobby as a whole.
If folks are interested in hybrids because they feel they have run out way to enjoy their frogs and the hobby speaking at schools, boy scouts and after school programs can be very rewarding.
I would remind every one that which every side of the argument you are this board will be more productive if we maintain a friendly tone. Also give each other the benefit of the doubt that we love the frogs that we are privileged to have in our care and we will listen to each points with a open but still appropriately skeptical mind.
Evan
It's not your thread. You posted on a public forum. My first comment in here was a comical heads up to you as to what was going to happen here. You are so obviously in this for the argument that it is comical, as has been pointed out by many. You claim that you want to learn but you throw the answers that are given you, back in the face of anyone who tries to help. People like you are detrimental to the hobby. Your posts reek of ignorance and you hardheaded attitude makes it obvious that you just want to argue.seems to me that you have been the one trying to cause conflict. every post you have made here has been a snide comment or attempt to start a flame war. you're first comment in here was an attempt to start something. sorry i offended you by asking a question, but please feel free to not respond to my posts from here on out.
Which is the definition of a Troll.
s
s
... Your posts reek of ignorance and you hardheaded attitude makes it obvious that you just want to argue.
I hear Magnum Force is pretty good.......Anyone see any good movies lately?
John
You are correct in that assumption... But, I will point out that the two species in the enclosure are FEET apart most of the time. And I don't advise this to anyone else. I have a HUGE tank by any standard. Just because I have one doesn't make it ok. You will notice the mixed tanks you see are hundreds of gallons.Then you haven't learned anything anybody has said to you. Then you wonder why people are being hard on you. I am not the only one that has told you this isn't other hobbies this is Dendrobates/dart frogs it is a hobby on to itself. It has separate ideologies then other hobbies just by looking at the hybrid issue itself (not including mixed tanks). It's not snakes, shrimp, fish, reefs, cross-stitch, wood working.
Then you still say it's fair to compare? Even Scott has explained the thread topic to you to you and you argue with him, and he has a mixed tank(from my understanding) and you still continue with the argumentative attitude. Either your hear to fight and argue or thick headed. You have wasted a lot of time fighting in a thread that you could have spent reading and researching on how to care for single species tanks. Can mix tanks be successful? Yes. Should they be done by someone that has little expierance in the hobby? NO. How many people have told you this? Enough for you get the point, that YOU don't have the expierance and the knowledge to be successful with it. They have explained the thoughts on both sides of the hybrid issue as well.
So continue researching and learning, and forget about comparing this hobby to other hobbies. Again what other people do in other hobbies is good for THEM and works for THEM. What they do there does not apply here. To find out what works here use the search button here and find some knowledgeable hobbyist here that you can ask questions and advice.
Let this thread die as I will with this last response. Good luck to you in your research and learning.
Which you explained.....And he is still fighting with you. So as far as that goes it wasn't about the "question" getting answered but him wanting to argue and fight.You are correct in that assumption... But, I will point out that the two species in the enclosure are FEET apart most of the time. And I don't advise this to anyone else. I have a HUGE tank by any standard. Just because I have one doesn't make it ok. You will notice the mixed tanks you see are hundreds of gallons.
I am bowing out now.....
You're right Scott. Sorry, that was about 2 sentences over the line.Which is the definition of a Troll.
s
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