what is the deal with mixing frogs?

11459 Views 123 Replies 37 Participants Last post by Woodsman, May 31, 2011

vespers_

Discussion Starter · May 29, 2011

so i am extremely new to the whole dart frog thing (in fact i don't own any yet and i'm doing research to see if i want to keep them) and i've seen a whole lot of rage about mixing frogs. what i haven't seen though, is a concrete reason why people are so against it. i don't have any feelings for or against this, i just want to know why people don't like it so much.

isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such? in the shrimp breeding industry, people breed crazy mixed shrimps all the time until they get a nice one and then breed it out until they get a "new" kind of shrimp. what is the different between this and doing the same with frogs?

people breed things to get better color and traits they like.

there are people who like to keep wild varieties of shrimps and those who like the new fancy ones. i guess what i'm asking is why people are so against it in dart frogs, but don't bat an eye with other animals.

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Azurel

· #61 · May 30, 2011

Jellyman said:
The statement above is far from correct. I have purchased frogs and supplies from almost every sponsor on this forum and from at least a dozen members. Certainly there may be a select few that might do the above but I have yet to have my money turned down from any business or any member of this forum.

That is why there was "some" typed......To some money talks, BS walks....I wouldn't expect vendors to do so it in the least, it's there business how they feed their families. Members are differant story. But again it is their choice they make for themselves.

Me personally I wouldn't/won't do business with a person who creates hybrids. Money is not that important to me, but again that is my personal choice. We all have to make choices some will agree with the choices we/I/you make and some won't that's life......

Ed

· #62 · May 30, 2011

vespers_ said:
from all that i have read/experienced, inbreeding is a bad thing and weakens the animals. animals that have been highly inbred have health problems are are much more fragile than other animals. eventually they will not survive. this goes from shrimp all the way to lions and tigers. generally breeders want to avoid it as much as possible...

how to you determine that the risk of outbreeding depression outweighs the risk of inbreeding depression?

This is going to seem harsh, but it isn't intended that way.

This tells me you have a poor or incomplete understanding of not only captive population management but how populations work in the wild.. This is not an uncommon discussion on the forum and hits the forum every couple of months.. I have posted a lot of literature links on the forum.. enough that I'm getting tired of doing so when a search on inbreeding and/or outbreeding discussion will pull up those threads. Outbreeding depression in captive populations is considered a big enough problem that the recommendation is to not do it unless there is absolutely no way other way to sustain the population.. in other words, so many deleterious problems have shown up that the population is no longer viable. We are no where close to that stage as of yet with any dendrobatids.

In wild populations of animals, outbreeding depression can significantly affect growth, develeopment or survivial of not only eggs but juveniles or adults. It can take as long as 5 generations for the issues to surface (at which point it is too late to salvage the affected population).

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vespers_

Discussion Starter · #63 · May 30, 2011

Azurel said:
First off this is not Fish, shrimp, snakes hobby what they do there in those hobbies and are OK with don't apply to this one with dart frogs. One of the first things I did researching this hobby was reading and searching what the opinions, standards and practices were and are how they were are applied to keeping dart frogs.

What ever you see in fish, snakes, shrimp don't apply here. You are comparing apples to oranges, differant sets of opinions, standards and ideology. What ever you think is OK over there forget it, erase it from your mind and start dart frogs with a clean slate. One thing you have opened yourself out to is being a future hybrididiot with some of your post, not only will you find it difficult to be here on dendroboard, most will shun you, will not sell to you, and even some of the what can be considered by some responsible Pro-mixers will not deal with you.

There were many things I had to erase from my mind having been in the reef hobby for 25+ years. I cannot compare hybrid or cross breed clownfish and say well they do it in reefing so why not darts. Different hobby, differant mind set, differant ideology on how the hobby works and is put in practice.

the whole point of this thread was me asking about why the dart frog hobby has such a hostile view regarding hybrids etc... when many other hobbies are open to the idea and actively encourage it. i have heard many good reasons for it and against it. that's all. i just wanted to know why out of curiosity. i am not leaning either way and i'm certainly not going to attack others over their views. i just wanted some clarification.

anyway, it's a little sad to say that i will be a "hybridiot" when i don't own any frogs at all and i'm nowhere near ready to own any. i'm just trying to learn so i can give my future frogs proper homes.

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vespers_

Discussion Starter · #64 · May 30, 2011

Ed said:
This is going to seem harsh, but it isn't intended that way.

This tells me you have a poor or incomplete understanding of not only captive population management but how populations work in the wild.. This is not an uncommon discussion on the forum and hits the forum every couple of months.. I have posted a lot of literature links on the forum.. enough that I'm getting tired of doing so when a search on inbreeding and/or outbreeding discussion will pull up those threads. Outbreeding depression in captive populations is considered a big enough problem that the recommendation is to not do it unless there is absolutely no way other way to sustain the population.. in other words, so many deleterious problems have shown up that the population is no longer viable. We are no where close to that stage as of yet with any dendrobatids.

In wild populations of animals, outbreeding depression can significantly affect growth, develeopment or survivial of not only eggs but juveniles or adults. It can take as long as 5 generations for the issues to surface (at which point it is too late to salvage the affected population).

you're right, i'm no expert on the topic. i do know however that many breeders of animals will try to introduce new blood into the gene pool because inbreeding doesn't produce good results. this has been shown many, many times. in the wild, scientists are introducing animals from other areas into isolated populations to reduce the effects of inbreeding. ex: lions. there seems to be a much smaller body of research on outbreeding depression than on inbreeding depression and it has been said that it is hard to determine the effects of outbreeding depression. which is why i wondered where you draw the line... inbreeding is not good. period. it is a fact.

anyway, i will go read some of these articles. i have read one or two that you linked already. interesting reads.

Scott Richardson

· #65 · May 30, 2011

Jellyman said:
The statement above is far from correct. I have purchased frogs and supplies from almost every sponsor on this forum and from at least a dozen members. Certainly there may be a select few that might do the above but I have yet to have my money turned down from any business or any member of this forum.

That may be true. However, everyone knows my views. And while I believe it may be alright to keep one type of thumbs and one terrestrial species together in a larger well planned out enclosure; You talk about mixing whatever, and think hybrids are cool.
I don't wish to disrespect the "purists" as I fully support their work. And with the exception of my display tank, I fully agree with them.

So, I may be labelled as a pro-mixer, which is ok but not completely accurate.

But I do not want to be labelled in the same group as you.

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Ed

· #66 · May 30, 2011

The reason is because outbreeding depression is something that those translocations have caused to become noticed... and yes they can cause significant deleterious problems..

Inbreeding can be beneficial as it optimizes adaption through genetics to the local enviroment... as a classic example, mice that inhabit freezers develop thick coats.. this is a result of the population in the freezer adapting to the local enviroment.. they lose the coding for the normal coat..

As for a discussion on it, one of the articles I have linked most frequently http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/creel/bio480/edmands%202007.pdf

You may also want to read up on hybrid dysgenesis... for example it can cause sterility when two populations of the same animal has been seperated and are then allowed to cross. See for example http://www.genetics.org/content/92/1/161.full.pdf

Scott Richardson

· #67 · May 30, 2011

vespers_ said:
the whole point of this thread was me asking about why the dart frog hobby has such a hostile view regarding hybrids etc... when many other hobbies are open to the idea and actively encourage it. i have heard many good reasons for it and against it. that's all. i just wanted to know why out of curiosity. i am not leaning either way and i'm certainly not going to attack others over their views. i just wanted some clarification.

anyway, it's a little sad to say that i will be a "hybridiot" when i don't own any frogs at all and i'm nowhere near ready to own any. i'm just trying to learn so i can give my future frogs proper homes.

You know, you asked a pretty good question out of curiosity. The rest of the herp world does it, why don't we?
I tried to give you the best answer you are going to get. Why? because every other week, someone new wants to set up a mixed tank that will produce hybrids. People are tired of hearing the question. I believe you got some good information, and Ed has pointed you in a good direction.

Any other topic, you will get some helpful info from all.

And, there is a multi species reference page in the general area. read it.

And, a pastel snake looks totally out of place in a planted natural vivarium, where as a green tree python looks beautiful in the same set up just as nature made it.
So, why bother.

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SmackoftheGods

· #68 · May 30, 2011

Scott Richardson said:
So, I may be labelled as a pro-mixer, which is ok but not completely accurate.

Pretty sure there's a big difference between pro-mixing and pro-hybrid.... While there tends to be a correlation between the two groups, they are _necessarily_ correlated.

Jellyman

· #69 · May 30, 2011

Scott Richardson said:
That may be true. However, everyone knows my views. And while I believe it may be alright to keep one type of thumbs and one terrestrial species together in a larger well planned out enclosure; You talk about mixing whatever, and think hybrids are cool.
I don't wish to disrespect the "purists" as I fully support their work. And with the exception of my display tank, I fully agree with them.

So, I may be labelled as a pro-mixer, which is ok but not completely accurate.

But I do not want to be labelled in the same group as you.

What group would that be?

Azurel

· #70 · May 30, 2011

vespers_ said:
the whole point of this thread was me asking about why the dart frog hobby has such a hostile view regarding hybrids etc... when many other hobbies are open to the idea and actively encourage it. i have heard many good reasons for it and against it. that's all. i just wanted to know why out of curiosity. i am not leaning either way and i'm certainly not going to attack others over their views. i just wanted some clarification.

anyway, it's a little sad to say that i will be a "hybridiot" when i don't own any frogs at all and i'm nowhere near ready to own any. i'm just trying to learn so i can give my future frogs proper homes.

I am not saying you will be or are, but being open to it by your verbiage based on some of the post you made can open you to that perception, all based on what other hobbies do. What I am saying is forget what "they" do, it don't matter here. You cannot argue what they do is good for them so it should be good here that is my point. Research dart frogs as it's own hobby with it's own rules, guidelines, ideologies, and practices.

In a lot of cases hybrids are done for the sole purpose of MONEY in other hobbies. Take reefing for example they have stared to cross/hybrid/out-cross clown fish to the point of being ridiculous. Not because the natural clownfish and natural hybrids are not pretty or valuable, but they can make even more money selling man made color morphs.

People are eating them up at $100-$400 a fish because they have to have the new in clownfish. But when looking at their reef tank with corals and inverts displayed to look like a natural reef, there are these fish that look out of place. Why? Because they don't belong there they are not natural. Are the pretty? Yes, but that don't make them right or natural just because they can breed.

Most people don't want this hobby to go the way of these other hobbies, these things can become a slippery slope. Once it is OK for hybrids, breeding everything with everything that will breed with it in the years to come nobody will beable to recognize the hobby they once loved and it has lost the thing that it was meant to. Having a piece of the rain forest in your home to enjoy and watching frogs in their natural state as nature intended.

This board is full of great knowledge and great hobbyist that are willing to give great advice. But for the advice and knowledge to sink in you have to forget the preconceived ideologies of other hobbies.

It is good to ask questions and keep asking them....I can say that there have been few things I have done that is as addictive as dart frogs so beware.

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Scott Richardson

· #71 · May 30, 2011

Jellyman said:
What group would that be?

What is laughable is that is ok to feed mutated fruit flies and decorate with hybrid plant species but heaven forbid we have a hybrid frog.

So everything else is fair game? Well as long as the frogs are pure.

That would be an awesome new line. Black back leuc. Put me down for a trio!!!

This group! ( All words straight out of your mouth. )

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rob65

· #72 · May 30, 2011 (Edited)

OMG this is so much more fun than listening to the radio or watching TV. It just goes on and on...never ending!

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chadfarmer

· #73 · May 30, 2011 (Edited)

the deal is I like this hobby for this reason-- pure animals not something that some one want to create

when i buy an azuerus-- i get an azuerus that is healthy from the blood line ----if its not broke why try to fix it

Pumilo

· #74 · May 30, 2011

HunterB said:
I'm assuming you're talking about me (cant imagine this happened to someone else in the same state lol) so thank you Doug for the compliment and no they wont be bred, ever.

I don't get drawn into these discussions because no one wins in the end, many are quick to whine and call others "mean" and others put alot of effort into linking to past discussions and the posts are usually only skimmed over - ignoring the time that went into them.

I don't mix, I don't support hybrids in the slightest - I'm a responsible keeper. I only want our hobby to grow and be a healthy hobby.

These discussions are just mindless circles of argument.

Thanks,
Hunter

Yes Hunter, I was referring to you. Obviously we've never met but you have a respectable rep and I'm glad the frogs made it into responsible hands. You're quite welcome.
These discussions are just mindless circles of argument.
I agree and I always mean to stay out of them and just sit back and watch. But then the OP always say something (I'm not going to say it), something that insists upon an answer. There! I even stayed P.C.

Tony

· #75 · May 30, 2011

lincolnrailers said:
So, the mountain ranges that separate them will wear away in 1000 years? Man, my "Evolution of the Earth" master's class professor most have been completely wrong!

Oh, evolution is just a theory you know.

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Jeff R

· #76 · May 30, 2011

Tony said:
Oh, evolution is just a theory you know.

TONY! We talked about this. Nothing controversial! I'm officially your moderator.

MY FREND GAVE ME THAT!

Tony

· #77 · May 30, 2011

jeff r said:
tony! We talked about this. Nothing controversial! I'm officially your moderator.

My frend gave me that!

i will hunt you!

BlueRidge

· #78 · May 30, 2011

That's why when you see a chocolate leuc or a no-spot cintronella hobbyists encourage breeding those animals with a "normal" individual of the same locality.

I have always wondered about frogs like these, I mean I haven't really heard of a chocolate leuc until recently. Aren't alot of the tincs hybrids bred for pattern or color?

I've always been curious about terribilis though. Is there really a mint or orange species in the wild? I thought wild terribilis were all like a golden yellow. If so, was the mint or orange from selective breeding?

Tony

· #79 · May 30, 2011

JaredJ said:
Aren't alot of the tincs hybrids bred for pattern or color?

No, they are found in nature in reproductively isolated populations. The D. tinctorius morphguide provides a good overview of the morphs and where they are found in nature.

JaredJ said:
If so, was the mint or orange from selective breeding?

No again, as with D.tinctorius they come from several distinct populations.

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BlueRidge

· #80 · May 30, 2011

Tony said:
No, they are found in nature in reproductively isolated populations. The D. tinctorius morphguide provides a good overview of the morphs and where they are found in nature.

No again, as with D.tinctorius they come from several distinct populations.

Cool! I didn't think they were natural.. thx

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