true enough, you can't really know what they will do unless you know them well.
what is the deal with mixing frogs?
so i am extremely new to the whole dart frog thing (in fact i don't own any yet and i'm doing research to see if i want to keep them) and i've seen a whole lot of rage about mixing frogs. what i haven't seen though, is a concrete reason why people are so against it. i don't have any feelings for or against this, i just want to know why people don't like it so much.
isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such? in the shrimp breeding industry, people breed crazy mixed shrimps all the time until they get a nice one and then breed it out until they get a "new" kind of shrimp. what is the different between this and doing the same with frogs?
people breed things to get better color and traits they like.
there are people who like to keep wild varieties of shrimps and those who like the new fancy ones. i guess what i'm asking is why people are so against it in dart frogs, but don't bat an eye with other animals.
isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such? in the shrimp breeding industry, people breed crazy mixed shrimps all the time until they get a nice one and then breed it out until they get a "new" kind of shrimp. what is the different between this and doing the same with frogs?
people breed things to get better color and traits they like.
there are people who like to keep wild varieties of shrimps and those who like the new fancy ones. i guess what i'm asking is why people are so against it in dart frogs, but don't bat an eye with other animals.
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That is my point. You are refusing to take any responsibility for releasing them to the public and diluting the bloodlines. In one breath you say you will take responsibility and in the next you have already released them into the hobby and you don't care what your experiment will do to our hobby. This is completely selfish and as Irresponsible as you can possibly get.you make it sound like a very dramatic disaster... if the person receiving the frog is responsible and knowledgeable and they know the frog's history, i don't see problem.
This has happened recently. Someone in PA purchased some frogs that were hybrids at the Hamburg show. That person moved and pawned them off on a friend that offered them to anyone on DB that would take them. The person that took them was performing an act of charity. So basically someone gets there 18 months of friends hyping up there cool tank and then has to extend an olive branch to anyone who will take them because they can no longer keep them.well granted i can't say i know much about the demand for hybrid frogs, but i'm sure you could find people who would take them for free...
We (the hobby) got lucky on that one as they went to a responsible party who will keep them without breeding them.This has happened recently. Someone in PA purchased some frogs that were hybrids at the Hamburg show. That person moved and pawned them off on a friend that offered them to anyone on DB that would take them. The person that took them was performing an act of charity. So basically someone gets there 18 months of friends hyping up there cool tank and then has to extend an olive branch to anyone who will take them because they can no longer keep them.
EvilLost
Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 68
Thanks: 2
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rescued some frogs, could use some guidance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey all,
PHOTOS HERE: https://picasaweb.google.com/Mani.Ar...6EpM2siruNqQE#
I rescued a trio of frogs a little while back and they are my first PDFs. I did not get any other info on them....but I have also been following these boards for awhile.
Anyway, long story short: I have been feeding them fruit flies (D.Mela) and springtails for the past few weeks. Their tank was open-screen top (one of the tall exo-terra with the opening door and front vent) so I covered it with plastic wrap (there is still a front vent) and spray it lightly daily. Humidity is ~80-90% and temps ride right around 74-78.
For the past few days I have been feeding exclusively springtails (my D.Mela culture died and I don't have my next batch just yet). Is it ok to feed them springtails exclusively? They are so easy to culture and the frogs are devouring them. Not the fruit flies are hard but the springtails literally take no effort...also, I am not sure how often to feed but I basically have been putting in more springtails about every other day when I see no more in the tank.
Anyway, the frogs have been active, eating, and seemingly healthy (but as I said its my first set of frogs so I don't have much to base it off). [There are 2 orange frogs and 1 green frog (separate tanks). The orange frogs are EXTREMELY active and not very shy at all. The green frog is always, always hiding and I see him at best once a week.
So, few questions:
1) Can you guys ID my frogs? (pics attached) sizewise they are about the size of my thumbnail
-species? locale (if applicable)? SEXES?
2) Today, I saw the larger one trying to mount the smaller one (but the smaller one wasn't having any of that!) I have NOT heard any kind of calling. I watched them for a good while and it was very clear the larger one continuously chased the smaller one around trying to mount it and the smaller one would brush him away.
I'm assuming this means my larger frog is a male. Does this mean my smaller frog is female? Or could I have 2 males? (Ie would the larger male just try to mount a smaller male if noone else is around?) How else could I tell their sexes?
3) Any general husbandry comments appreciated. I'm well familiar with exotics, just new to the frogs.
4) If they are mating, can anyone direct me to a thread/info on what to look out and how to proceed? I have broms in their enclosure but I'm not sure what to look for? And how noticeable would the calling be? Is it possible I simply haven't heard it? (I have many other animals, including birds that sing throughout the day)
Thanks for the advice!
Vespers, the expert you are taking advise from didn't have any experience yesterday. he only know his frogs are orange ones and a green one in SEPERATE TANKS. he doesn't even mix.
Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 68
Thanks: 2
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rescued some frogs, could use some guidance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey all,
PHOTOS HERE: https://picasaweb.google.com/Mani.Ar...6EpM2siruNqQE#
I rescued a trio of frogs a little while back and they are my first PDFs. I did not get any other info on them....but I have also been following these boards for awhile.
Anyway, long story short: I have been feeding them fruit flies (D.Mela) and springtails for the past few weeks. Their tank was open-screen top (one of the tall exo-terra with the opening door and front vent) so I covered it with plastic wrap (there is still a front vent) and spray it lightly daily. Humidity is ~80-90% and temps ride right around 74-78.
For the past few days I have been feeding exclusively springtails (my D.Mela culture died and I don't have my next batch just yet). Is it ok to feed them springtails exclusively? They are so easy to culture and the frogs are devouring them. Not the fruit flies are hard but the springtails literally take no effort...also, I am not sure how often to feed but I basically have been putting in more springtails about every other day when I see no more in the tank.
Anyway, the frogs have been active, eating, and seemingly healthy (but as I said its my first set of frogs so I don't have much to base it off). [There are 2 orange frogs and 1 green frog (separate tanks). The orange frogs are EXTREMELY active and not very shy at all. The green frog is always, always hiding and I see him at best once a week.
So, few questions:
1) Can you guys ID my frogs? (pics attached) sizewise they are about the size of my thumbnail
-species? locale (if applicable)? SEXES?
2) Today, I saw the larger one trying to mount the smaller one (but the smaller one wasn't having any of that!) I have NOT heard any kind of calling. I watched them for a good while and it was very clear the larger one continuously chased the smaller one around trying to mount it and the smaller one would brush him away.
I'm assuming this means my larger frog is a male. Does this mean my smaller frog is female? Or could I have 2 males? (Ie would the larger male just try to mount a smaller male if noone else is around?) How else could I tell their sexes?
3) Any general husbandry comments appreciated. I'm well familiar with exotics, just new to the frogs.
4) If they are mating, can anyone direct me to a thread/info on what to look out and how to proceed? I have broms in their enclosure but I'm not sure what to look for? And how noticeable would the calling be? Is it possible I simply haven't heard it? (I have many other animals, including birds that sing throughout the day)
Thanks for the advice!
Vespers, the expert you are taking advise from didn't have any experience yesterday. he only know his frogs are orange ones and a green one in SEPERATE TANKS. he doesn't even mix.
Thanks Scott, you saved me a lot of time. Although I am not a fan of mixing I do appreciate and respect the hobbyist that do it responsibly and take offense to people that send the wrong message about mixing.
Well done sir.
Well done sir.
CorrectYou are completely disregarding and ignoring the fact that they can and have, leaked out into the hobby. I saw it pointed out a couple of times and you are not acknowledging it. What happens when the keeper/breeder is involved in a fatal car accident? Family or whoever could take them into a pet shop not realizing what they are doing.
Or what happens when the breeder just decides they are done with the hobby? Think about it. Are you prepared just kill the frogs you've raised from babies? I don't think so.
If you all 'must' know, I for one keep an nice short list of people I wont buy from....after hearing about their 'opinions' on DB [most of which are NOT from experienced keepers]
This OP question is one that is asked 90% of the time from someone new and trying to understand. Yeah the forum hobby is rough on this question but most/all experienced keepers know why....they are just too darn uninterested in answering this question forever....so dont post.
Keep the rest of this discussion civil folks....or it ends.
Just because some of us do keep mixed enclosures, it doesn't mean that we do not respect the efforts of the "purists" of the hobby. My actions don't impede on those efforts.Thanks Scott, you saved me a lot of time. Although I am not a fan of mixing I do appreciate and respect the hobbyist that do it responsibly and take offense to people that send the wrong message about mixing.
Well done sir.
I have kept tincs and auratus off and on over the years, and they are still my favorite. One day, I want to build a rack like Marty's and want a pair of each morph of both. In order to do that, I need for all the morphs to still be around.
that's not what i said. i said that you need to take responsibility to the extent that you can. you inform a potential buyer/receiver of what they are receiving and try to find a responsible buyer. beyond that, there is not much you can do, but that's the same thing in any business transaction. after that, it is the buyer's responsibility to be responsible. if someone wants hybrids, they will get them... if it means buying your hybrids or buying "pure" frogs and creating their own, they will get them.That is my point. You are refusing to take any responsibility for releasing them to the public and diluting the bloodlines. In one breath you say you will take responsibility and in the next you have already released them into the hobby and you don't care what your experiment will do to our hobby. This is completely selfish and as Irresponsible as you can possibly get.
anyway, i appreciate the responses and everyone for helping me understand this issue... oh and for pointing out the search function. i don't log in unless i am about to post so i never saw it >.<
why do I have a strong feeling of Deja vu?EDIT: As a side note, I would like to point out that genetic mixing is the preference in nature. The more varied the genetic pool, the better the resulting animals tend to be. I do not understand the desire to "keep nature pure" by many keepers....nature itself is always evolving. If you were to look at these same animals in 1000 years odds are that these locales would have crossbred and possibly even created new locales....you guys are ok with the "naturally created" locales, but not the "purposely bred" locales....it just does not make sense to me. I am a keeper / forum member of several different exotics and although this attitude changes from animal to animal, there is NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS whatsoever. It is purely opinion. Until SOLID EVIDENCE can be shown one way or another, I will continue siding with the "pro-mixers."
Actually you are entirely incorrect in your premise with the argument above.. Nature does not always desire diversity... for example localized inbreeding that provides a selective advantage in known from a number of taxa including but not limited to wolves, domestic mice and of course frogs.. You may be surprised at how deleterious out breeding depression is to a population and it can be enough of a threat to result in localized extinctions. If you search outbreeding depression, you can find the many links to peer reviewed publications that I have cited in the past.
There is a second flaw in your argument.. most of the locals we are discussing have not had contact for thousands of years (I have provided the citations for this in the past as well). You are also hinting that speciation is the result of hybridization or crossbreeding events.... this is actually an extremely rare method of speciation and more often than not, they do not result in a viable species... for example some of the parthenogenic whiptails are believed to only be stable because the two species continue to hybridize (the hybrid population would fail over several generations) and produce new generations.
Some comments,
Ed
The op stated at the very beginning of this post that if its ok to mix dogs it should be ok to mix frogs. But who says its ok to mix dogs? How many reputable dog breeders are mixing to make mutts? I don't think so....cat breeders...nope not those either. So keep your cocker spaniel poodle mixes...but a mutt is a mutt. No mutt dogs and no mutt frogs.
I know im a few pages late on this topic but honestly of all the threads i have read this is the best description of an answer that anyone in the hobby should give.Some are against mixing because they honestly believe they are going to someday repopulate the wild with their frogs. The frogs are not in danger of extinction, their habitat is. So, there won't be anywhere to put them, and they probably wouldn't survive anyhow being captive bred.
Some are against mixing, because they are sheep. They read that mixing is bad, so their opinion is that it is bad. Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one.
Then there is the third group of anti mixing people........
Because of deforestation, there is a really good chance that these frogs may some day disappear from the wild because their natural habitat is no longer there. So, in what could be loosely considered a conservation effort, this group wants to keep all of the lines pure so there are prime examples of each frog around for the future. Different Morphs of the same species are really all the same family of frog, but their coloration differs from locale to locale. This is the reason that this group wants to keep the morphs seperate and keep as much locality data as possible, so it is available in the future.
Sorry that this is not explained better. Mixing always leads to discussion of Hybrids. Not all people that have mixed enclosures are irresponsible as they would have you believe. And having a mixed enclosure doesn't mean that person is going to unleash hybrids into the gene pool.
A mixed enclosure is NOT something that should be attempted by someone until they have experience with each of the species to be housed together. This will lead to less failure by knowing how to detect issues. You MUST know the normal behaviour of the frogs first.
And if a person does have a mixed enclosure, they MUST be responsible with the offspring in regards to the work of the third group above.
Thank you Scott
Sent from taptalk Sprint Evo
no i didn't... i asked if this is a similar situation to the mixing of dogs. "isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such?"The op stated at the very beginning of this post that if its ok to mix dogs it should be ok to mix frogs. But who says its ok to mix dogs? How many reputable dog breeders are mixing to make mutts? I don't think so....cat breeders...nope not those either. So keep your cocker spaniel poodle mixes...but a mutt is a mutt. No mutt dogs and no mutt frogs.
i also said later on that i am against the pure breeding of dogs when it gets to the point that pure bred dogs have huge health problems (ex: hip dysplasia). the fact is that mutts are actually healthier than pure breds...
I see a lot of referencing fish and such, but for anyone who is not currently involved in fish, you may not realize, but MANY groups of fish have a lot of breeders dedicated to keeping species and even localities pure. Cichlids, killifish, and many livebearers are all commonly kept by serious hobbyists to be locality specific, and as a result, some of these fish are now ONLY found in captivity. It's not a big stretch to imagine that this may be the end result of many of these frogs. And deforestation is not the only threat to them. There could be every reason to suspect that habitat will be preserved.
As for hybridization...it's very common amongst fish and groups of reptiles in the hobby, and certainly possible with dart frogs. Even snakes of different genera have produced hybrids. And the unfortunate part is that once hybrids get out there, they tend to leak everywhere. I see Endler's livebearers, various dwarf and African cichlids, etc. everywhere labeled as per species, when they are clearly no longer pure. The breeders don't care, the stores don't know better, and the customers just think it looks pretty...then the customer ends up breeding it, and selling/giving them away as what they bought them as and so on. Just because you think you're responsible, and you think everyone else is responsible, it doesn't really work that way.
I'm not saying automatically don't do it. I definitely feel that in a large enough tank, mixes involving an arboreal thumbnail and terrestrial Dendrobates can work. But I think people get into it for the wrong reasons and under the wrong pretenses. Those aforementioned 40 verts are a good example. If, for example, the owner of the 150 who apparently sparked this thread had done something with a single locality arboreal/single locality terrestrial mix of distantly related species, I would see no problem with that if enough living space were provided for both species.
As for hybridization...it's very common amongst fish and groups of reptiles in the hobby, and certainly possible with dart frogs. Even snakes of different genera have produced hybrids. And the unfortunate part is that once hybrids get out there, they tend to leak everywhere. I see Endler's livebearers, various dwarf and African cichlids, etc. everywhere labeled as per species, when they are clearly no longer pure. The breeders don't care, the stores don't know better, and the customers just think it looks pretty...then the customer ends up breeding it, and selling/giving them away as what they bought them as and so on. Just because you think you're responsible, and you think everyone else is responsible, it doesn't really work that way.
I'm not saying automatically don't do it. I definitely feel that in a large enough tank, mixes involving an arboreal thumbnail and terrestrial Dendrobates can work. But I think people get into it for the wrong reasons and under the wrong pretenses. Those aforementioned 40 verts are a good example. If, for example, the owner of the 150 who apparently sparked this thread had done something with a single locality arboreal/single locality terrestrial mix of distantly related species, I would see no problem with that if enough living space were provided for both species.
from all that i have read/experienced, inbreeding is a bad thing and weakens the animals. animals that have been highly inbred have health problems are are much more fragile than other animals. eventually they will not survive. this goes from shrimp all the way to lions and tigers. generally breeders want to avoid it as much as possible...why do I have a strong feeling of Deja vu?
for example localized inbreeding that provides a selective advantage in known from a number of taxa including but not limited to wolves, domestic mice and of course frogs..
how to you determine that the risk of outbreeding depression outweighs the risk of inbreeding depression?
So, the mountain ranges that separate them will wear away in 1000 years? Man, my "Evolution of the Earth" master's class professor most have been completely wrong!If you were to look at these same animals in 1000 years odds are that these locales would have crossbred and possibly even created new locales....you guys are ok with the "naturally created" locales, but not the "purposely bred" locales....it just does not make sense to me.
Look at a dart frog. Most people will drop their jaw and say. "Wow! It's so tiny and pretty and/or colorful. Now it you look at a ball python, leopard gecko, crested gecko and look at the original imports you'll notice a plain brown. Yeah they're interesting but "Oh, this one has a bit of red/orange, or this one has an unique pattern, let's breed it to try and enhance thats characteristic.
Really, all I see is that there is no NEED to make a dart frog MORE spectacular. Other breeders (like reptile breeders) try to make a more "flashy" animal making it different and more desirable.
As already stated, mixing/hybridizing is merely a matter of opinion.
(didn't read through the whole thread so if this was already discussed sorry)
Really, all I see is that there is no NEED to make a dart frog MORE spectacular. Other breeders (like reptile breeders) try to make a more "flashy" animal making it different and more desirable.
As already stated, mixing/hybridizing is merely a matter of opinion.
(didn't read through the whole thread so if this was already discussed sorry)
First off this is not Fish, shrimp, snakes hobby what they do there in those hobbies and are OK with don't apply to this one with dart frogs. One of the first things I did researching this hobby was reading and searching what the opinions, standards and practices were and are how they were are applied to keeping dart frogs.well that's why i said it takes responsibility on the part of the owner (and the buyer) to not advertise the frogs as something they aren't or buy frogs they haven't researched previously. i see it all the time with fish. people walk in and buy a fish without any clue what it is and then don't know what to do when it ends up being 4 feet long (yes it happens all the time). i think the buyer shares in the responsibility here too... we all know you can't always just trust what the seller says.
if you are open and tell people that they are hybrid frogs so people are prepared, is it such a big deal? it will always take a certain amount of responsibility.
What ever you see in fish, snakes, shrimp don't apply here. You are comparing apples to oranges, differant sets of opinions, standards and ideology. What ever you think is OK over there forget it, erase it from your mind and start dart frogs with a clean slate. One thing you have opened yourself out to is being a future hybrididiot with some of your post, not only will you find it difficult to be here on dendroboard, most will shun you, will not sell to you, and even some of the what can be considered by some responsible Pro-mixers will not deal with you.
There were many things I had to erase from my mind having been in the reef hobby for 25+ years. I cannot compare hybrid or cross breed clownfish and say well they do it in reefing so why not darts. Different hobby, differant mind set, differant ideology on how the hobby works and is put in practice.
I'm assuming you're talking about me (cant imagine this happened to someone else in the same state lol) so thank you Doug for the compliment and no they wont be bred, ever.We (the hobby) got lucky on that one as they went to a responsible party who will keep them without breeding them.
I don't get drawn into these discussions because no one wins in the end, many are quick to whine and call others "mean" and others put alot of effort into linking to past discussions and the posts are usually only skimmed over - ignoring the time that went into them.
I don't mix, I don't support hybrids in the slightest - I'm a responsible keeper. I only want our hobby to grow and be a healthy hobby.
These discussions are just mindless circles of argument.
Thanks,
Hunter
most will shun you, will not sell to you, and even some of the what can be considered by some responsible Pro-mixers will not deal with you.
The statement above is far from correct. I have purchased frogs and supplies from almost every sponsor on this forum and from at least a dozen members. Certainly there may be a select few that might do the above but I have yet to have my money turned down from any business or any member of this forum.
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