what is the deal with mixing frogs?

11483 Views 123 Replies 37 Participants Last post by Woodsman, May 31, 2011

vespers_

Discussion Starter · May 29, 2011

so i am extremely new to the whole dart frog thing (in fact i don't own any yet and i'm doing research to see if i want to keep them) and i've seen a whole lot of rage about mixing frogs. what i haven't seen though, is a concrete reason why people are so against it. i don't have any feelings for or against this, i just want to know why people don't like it so much.

isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such? in the shrimp breeding industry, people breed crazy mixed shrimps all the time until they get a nice one and then breed it out until they get a "new" kind of shrimp. what is the different between this and doing the same with frogs?

people breed things to get better color and traits they like.

there are people who like to keep wild varieties of shrimps and those who like the new fancy ones. i guess what i'm asking is why people are so against it in dart frogs, but don't bat an eye with other animals.

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Pumilo

· #21 · May 29, 2011 (Edited)

Scott Richardson said:
Why do you have to shoot everyone that asks the question? I, for one, completely understand and support your(not referring to you specifically Doug) wanting to keep bloodlines pure. And I, for one, would never introduce hybrids into the hobby. If I want to keep three male Terriblis in a 75 gallon enclosure and one is yellow, one is mint, and one is orange (just an example). How does it effect the hobby if proper husbandry methods are used and the frogs are fat, healthy and stress free?

I didn't shoot anyone. I don't believe I attacked in any way or said anything for or against mixing. I merely pointed out in a comical way that you may want to research this before opening yourself up to the inevitable attacks. Why do I say inevitable attacks? Because if you have read a single one of the many, many, mixing threads on here, you've seen it.
I know you said you're not referring to me, specifically. I'm just pointing out that I am unarmed and not holding the gun. I'm just sitting on the sidelines in my raincoat waiting for someone to pass the popcorn!

bmcdarts

· #22 · May 29, 2011

Look up my first post...I asked this same question about a month ago and got very angry members fighting over the fact that I kept more than one species together that should be showing aggression but I haven't seen any of them acting aggressive. I do however have a back up plan if I do start witnessing them being aggressive. Good luck! =)

BMcDarts

SmackoftheGods

· #23 · May 29, 2011

EvilLost said:
There is no hard scientific data to back either school of thought, and personally, I don't see any problem with mixing species.

Uhh... what? Have you not read _any_ of the recent posts where Ed has posted links to journals concerning out breeding depression?

EvilLost said:
AS A GENERAL RULE: IF YOU PLAN ON MIXING MAKE SURE THEY HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME REQUIREMENTS, THE ANIMALS ARE THE SAME SIZE.

You would rather have leucs and azureus in the same tank than imitators (which in a big enough, well designed enough tank will stay in the upper reaches) with terribilis (which will stay on the ground level)? Please don't give mixing advice to noobies if you haven't researched all of the issues and/or don't know what you're talking about.

vespers_ said:
isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such?

No. Despite the breed of dog, a dog is the same species and is a cross breed. So first, crossing a lab and a poodle still results in Canis lupus. Crossing a tinc and a leuc results in a true hybrid like a liger or a mule. Also, a breed of dog is something that has been selectively bred by humans for certain traits. By breeding different dogs together you're screwing with a human invention. Even if you breed two different morphs of tinctorius together many (most) occur in isolated populations from morph to morph, so really you're screwing with evolution.... Many of us think that's a pretty big difference.

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Scott Richardson

· #24 · May 29, 2011

EvilLost said:
It is purely opinion. Until SOLID EVIDENCE can be shown one way or another, I will continue siding with the "pro-mixers."

You're not invited!!
People like you and Jellyman are the reason there is such a debate on the subject.

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vespers_

Discussion Starter · #25 · May 29, 2011

EvilLost said:
Before you get flamed by these boards too much, let me save you some headache:

IT IS A MATTER OF OPINION.

There is no hard scientific data to back either school of thought, and personally, I don't see any problem with mixing species.

The issue tends to arise, esp with exotics that have LOCALE specifics (ie same species but diff locales ARE diff even though they can be bred together). People like to keep the "pure" locales separate. I'm all for this but I don't see any reason why people can't ALSO create hybrids.

The issue I think most people have with it is that it dilutes the market and at times it will become hard to tell what exactly you are buying. However, I think this argument is utter bullshit tbh; if you are EXPERIENCED in the field then you will buy from a reputable dealer and not have a problem....if you are not experienced then it doesn't matter.

Just my 2 cents; I see nothing wrong with mixing as long as you are open about it if you try to sell your animals. Someone lieing about his mixed animals and selling them as "true" locales is a scammer (or unlikely, but possibly unaware)....but that has NOTHING to do with the mixing of the frogs themselves.

HOWEVER, as others have pointed out on this thread: There are correct and incorrect ways to mix. As has been said in this thread, and quoted by SCOTT RICHARDSON above.....mixing that many frogs in those tank sizes is plain dumb. Not because of the mixing of species but because of the lack of space/environment htey have.

Mixing geckos with frogs as well, not a wise idea....esp taking their sizes into consideration.

AS A GENERAL RULE: IF YOU PLAN ON MIXING MAKE SURE THEY HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME REQUIREMENTS, THE ANIMALS ARE THE SAME SIZE, AND THE ENCLOSURE IS *MORE THAN BIG ENOUGH* FOR THE ANIMALS. IN A MIXED TANK YOU NEED **MUCH MORE SPACE** THAN YOU WOULD IF THE ANIMALS WERE NOT MIXED. and DO NOT MIX UNTIL YOU ARE VERY EXPERIENCED.

You might THINK they are doing fine, but until you are truly experienced you don't have the ABILITY to see when something is wrong. They don't always show problems; in fact they usually HIDE problems.

EDIT: As a side note, I would like to point out that genetic mixing is the preference in nature. The more varied the genetic pool, the better the resulting animals tend to be. I do not understand the desire to "keep nature pure" by many keepers....nature itself is always evolving. If you were to look at these same animals in 1000 years odds are that these locales would have crossbred and possibly even created new locales....you guys are ok with the "naturally created" locales, but not the "purposely bred" locales....it just does not make sense to me. I am a keeper / forum member of several different exotics and although this attitude changes from animal to animal, there is NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS whatsoever. It is purely opinion. Until SOLID EVIDENCE can be shown one way or another, I will continue siding with the "pro-mixers."

ah this helps put it into perspective. i can see the reasoning for both sides, but if you aren't trying to screw people with your hybrids and it doesn't hurt them, why not keep them and enjoy them?

if you aren't selling them as something they aren't is it really hurting anyone? you can keep your wild varieties and have your non wild ones and enjoy both of them.

ChrisK

· #26 · May 29, 2011

vespers_ said:
ah this helps put it into perspective. i can see the reasoning for both sides, but if you aren't trying to screw people with your hybrids and it doesn't hurt them, why not keep them and enjoy them?

if you aren't selling them as something they aren't is it really hurting anyone? you can keep your wild varieties and have your non wild ones and enjoy both of them.

As has been said many times before - what happens in 2 years when you decide to get out of the hobby?

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SmackoftheGods

· #27 · May 29, 2011

vespers_ said:
ah this helps put it into perspective. i can see the reasoning for both sides, but if you aren't trying to screw people with your hybrids and it doesn't hurt them, why not keep them and enjoy them?

if you aren't selling them as something they aren't is it really hurting anyone? you can keep your wild varieties and have your non wild ones and enjoy both of them.

The argument is more like this:

The life of a frog usually outlasts the average lifespan of the hobby in a hobbyist's life. A majority (granted, there are exceptions, but of those I've spoken to, even those with mixed tanks fall into the majority) don't want to work with hybrids/outcrossed frogs. There is seriously no market for them. So, you cross your frogs for your own benefit, then whatever comes up in your life, you ahve to get out of the hobby, and no one wants your frogs. People suspect that the person will label the crossed frogs as a pure bred frog to be able to sell the frog and that could polute the pure breeds in the hobby.

I'm not saying that's what would _actually_ happen... but that's the argument.

Edit: Chris beat me too it... and said it a lot better than I did anyway

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vespers_

Discussion Starter · #28 · May 29, 2011

SmackoftheGods said:
No. Despite the breed of dog, a dog is the same species and is a cross breed. So first, crossing a lab and a poodle still results in Canis lupus. Crossing a tinc and a leuc results in a true hybrid like a liger or a mule. Also, a breed of dog is something that has been selectively bred by humans for certain traits. By breeding different dogs together you're screwing with a human invention. Even if you breed two different morphs of tinctorius together many (most) occur in isolated populations from morph to morph, so really you're screwing with evolution.... Many of us think that's a pretty big difference.

well if they can breed then they must be the same species no? dogs were probably a bad example for the hybrid thing but not for the selective breeding. dogs were once wolves, and were selectively bred by people to produce certain traits and became dogs. look at pure bred dogs, most of them have horrible health problems and such from being inbred and bred with small gene pool. that to me, is wrong, but it is done all the time (with many animals) and i'm sure it is done very often to keep these so called "pure frogs".

but if you can produce a healthy hybrid without health problems for your own enjoyment and you aren't trying to sell them as something they aren't, is it wrong? people breed fancy shrimp all the time, and then there are purists who keep only the wild forms of the shrimp. isn't there a place for both?

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vespers_

Discussion Starter · #29 · May 29, 2011

ChrisK said:
As has been said many times before - what happens in 2 years when you decide to get out of the hobby?

this is true... i guess it comes down to a responsibility thing...

Scott Richardson

· #30 · May 29, 2011

As a proponent of mixed enclosures done correctly, I will tell you there is no reason to want to produce hybrids.

With snakes and lizards, you selectively breed for traits of each, and get rainbow colors.

This does not happen with frogs. You would think it would because of the colors. However, most hybrids are quite muted in color. Or just oddly colored.

There is no monetary value in hybrid frogs

SmackoftheGods

· #31 · May 29, 2011

vespers_ said:
well if they can breed then they must be the same species no? dogs were probably a bad example for the hybrid thing but not for the selective breeding. dogs were once wolves, and were selectively bred by people to produce certain traits and became dogs. look at pure bred dogs, most of them have horrible health problems and such from being inbred and bred with small gene pool. that to me, is wrong, but it is done all the time (with many animals) and i'm sure it is done very often to keep these so called "pure frogs".

No. tinctorius and leucomelas and auratus can all interbreed, but they're no the same species. pumilio and vicentei and escudo can all interbreed. bassleri and pepperi can interbreed. I'm willing to bet benedicta, uakarii, duellmani, fantastica, reticulata, and summersi can all interbreed. These are all different species.

This hobby discourages line breeding. That's why when you see a chocolate leuc or a no-spot cintronella hobbyists encourage breeding those animals with a "normal" individual of the same locality. We also encourage mixing bloodlines as long as it's proven that the frogs originate from the same population of frogs.

vespers_ said:
but if you can produce a healthy hybrid without health problems for your own enjoyment and you aren't trying to sell them as something they aren't, is it wrong? people breed fancy shrimp all the time, and then there are purists who keep only the wild forms of the shrimp. isn't there a place for both?

There may come a time when purists and hybridists can coexists in the dart frog hobby. Right now the hobby is way too small (IMO) for that to happen. Although if it ever _does_ happen I'll be leaving the forums and associating personally only with those purists I knew before the hybrids happen, and those that these people can put me in touch with. But as has been said (at least twice in this thread alone), the frogs' lives usually outlast most people in the hobby. And when that time comes, and these frogs that were intended for your own enjoyment need a new home, and no one wants to take them... what are you going to do?

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Pumilo

· #32 · May 29, 2011

vespers_ said:
well if they can breed then they must be the same species no? dogs were probably a bad example for the hybrid thing but not for the selective breeding. dogs were once wolves, and were selectively bred by people to produce certain traits and became dogs. look at pure bred dogs, most of them have horrible health problems and such from being inbred and bred with small gene pool. that to me, is wrong, but it is done all the time (with many animals) and i'm sure it is done very often to keep these so called "pure frogs".

but if you can produce a healthy hybrid without health problems for your own enjoyment and you aren't trying to sell them as something they aren't, is it wrong? people breed fancy shrimp all the time, and then there are purists who keep only the wild forms of the shrimp. isn't there a place for both?

You are completely disregarding and ignoring the fact that they can and have, leaked out into the hobby. I saw it pointed out a couple of times and you are not acknowledging it. What happens when the keeper/breeder is involved in a fatal car accident? Family or whoever could take them into a pet shop not realizing what they are doing.
Or what happens when the breeder just decides they are done with the hobby? Think about it. Are you prepared just kill the frogs you've raised from babies? I don't think so.

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vespers_

Discussion Starter · #33 · May 29, 2011 (Edited)

Pumilo said:
You are completely disregarding and ignoring the fact that they can and have, leaked out into the hobby. I saw it pointed out a couple of times and you are not acknowledging it. What happens when the keeper/breeder is involved in a fatal car accident? Family or whoever could take them into a pet shop not realizing what they are doing.
Or what happens when the breeder just decides they are done with the hobby? Think about it. Are you prepared just kill the frogs you've raised from babies? I don't think so.

well that's why i said it takes responsibility on the part of the owner (and the buyer) to not advertise the frogs as something they aren't or buy frogs they haven't researched previously. i see it all the time with fish. people walk in and buy a fish without any clue what it is and then don't know what to do when it ends up being 4 feet long (yes it happens all the time). i think the buyer shares in the responsibility here too... we all know you can't always just trust what the seller says.

if you are open and tell people that they are hybrid frogs so people are prepared, is it such a big deal? it will always take a certain amount of responsibility.

SmackoftheGods

· #34 · May 29, 2011

vespers_ said:
well that's why i said it takes responsibility on the part of the owner (and the buyer) to not advertise the frogs as something they aren't or buy frogs they haven't researched previously. i see it all the time with fish. people walk in and buy a fish without any clue what it is and then don't know what to do when it ends up being 4 feet long (yes it happens all the time).

if you are open and tell people that they are hybrid frogs so people are prepared, is it such a big deal? it will always take a certain amount of responsibility.

We've seen in the past (even just within the past couple of years) that there are too many people who don't have said responsibility. It's a lot easier if you just don't do it.

And you're still ignoring one awesome point. You breed them for yourself. But almost no one else wants them. So when it comes to the point where you have to get rid of them and you try selling them to a few different people and you're open and honest about "yeah, these are hybrids" and you get turned down repeatedly, but there's just no way you can keep these frogs anymore... what are you going to do? It's easy to say right now "yeah, I'll be responsible and I won't lie about the origin of my frogs," but when you actually put yourself in that kind of situation... what do you do? You're basically down to, kill the frogs yourself, give them to a pet store (which is still usually a death sentence), or lie about whether or not they're a hybrid.

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Pumilo

· #35 · May 29, 2011 (Edited)

vespers_ said:
well that's why i said it takes responsibility on the part of the owner (and the buyer) to not advertise the frogs as something they aren't or buy frogs they haven't researched previously. i see it all the time with fish. people walk in and buy a fish without any clue what it is and then don't know what to do when it ends up being 4 feet long (yes it happens all the time).

if you are open and tell people that they are hybrid frogs so people are prepared, is it such a big deal? it will always take a certain amount of responsibility.

Yes, it is. You are not even doing this yet, and you have already admitted that you will release them to the public. How is that taking any responsibility at all for your "experiment"? You have already relinquished control of your polluted bloodline even before you have created it. Now you have no idea what happens to your "Frankenstein". All we know is that you are already prepared to turn him loose on an unsuspecting town.

Pumilo

· #36 · May 29, 2011

Call the Frog Police! Captain Jake needs to take this guy downtown!

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vespers_

Discussion Starter · #37 · May 29, 2011

SmackoftheGods said:
We've seen in the past (even just within the past couple of years) that there are too many people who don't have said responsibility. It's a lot easier if you just don't do it.

And you're still ignoring one awesome point. You breed them for yourself. But almost no one else wants them. So when it comes to the point where you have to get rid of them and you try selling them to a few different people and you're open and honest about "yeah, these are hybrids" and you get turned down repeatedly, but there's just no way you can keep these frogs anymore... what are you going to do? It's easy to say right now "yeah, I'll be responsible and I won't lie about the origin of my frogs," but when you actually put yourself in that kind of situation... what do you do? You're basically down to, kill the frogs yourself, give them to a pet store (which is still usually a death sentence), or lie about whether or not they're a hybrid.

well granted i can't say i know much about the demand for hybrid frogs, but i'm sure you could find people who would take them for free... when i wanted to get rid of my fish, i gave them away to local hobbyists from a forum for free because they aren't really worth anything. darts are usually worth more than a lot of fish, but hybrids aren't.

vespers_

Discussion Starter · #38 · May 29, 2011

Pumilo said:
Yes, it is. You are not even doing this yet, and you have already admitted that you will release them to the public. How is that taking any responsibility at all for your "experiment"? You have already relinquished control of your polluted bloodline even before you have created it. Now you have no idea what happens to your "Frankenstein". All we know is that you are already prepared to turn him loose on an unsuspecting town.

you make it sound like a very dramatic disaster... if the person receiving the frog is responsible and knowledgeable and they know the frog's history, i don't see problem.

SmackoftheGods

· #39 · May 29, 2011

vespers_ said:
well granted i can't say i know much about the demand for hybrid frogs, but i'm sure you could find people who would take them for free... when i wanted to get rid of my fish, i gave them away to local hobbyists from a forum for free because they aren't really worth anything. darts are usually worth more than a lot of fish, but hybrids aren't.

Where most of us have the objective of breeding our frogs (a well-kept frog should breed even if we don't try), why would we want something that we couldn't breed? Or does that mean that the hobbyist you're pawning off your creations to plans to breed your hybrids?

How certain are you/we that the hobbyist you give your frogs to will maintain the same moral level and be honest about those frogs once he has acquired them? Or at that point would it just not matter to you since... well... you're leaving the hobby?

Scott Richardson

· #40 · May 29, 2011

vespers_ said:
well granted i can't say i know much about the demand for hybrid frogs, but i'm sure you could find people who would take them for free... when i wanted to get rid of my fish, i gave them away to local hobbyists from a forum for free because they aren't really worth anything. darts are usually worth more than a lot of fish, but hybrids aren't.

There lies a big problem..... A pet store takes them for free. They are just going to sell them as dart frogs. A guy buys them, looks at pictures on-line. "oh, these are New River Tincs." They breed! Guy joins Dendroboard. Post..New River Tinc froglets for sale. They are actually a hybrid

They just entered the bloodline

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