what is the deal with mixing frogs?

11458 Views 123 Replies 37 Participants Last post by Woodsman, May 31, 2011

vespers_

Discussion Starter · May 29, 2011

so i am extremely new to the whole dart frog thing (in fact i don't own any yet and i'm doing research to see if i want to keep them) and i've seen a whole lot of rage about mixing frogs. what i haven't seen though, is a concrete reason why people are so against it. i don't have any feelings for or against this, i just want to know why people don't like it so much.

isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such? in the shrimp breeding industry, people breed crazy mixed shrimps all the time until they get a nice one and then breed it out until they get a "new" kind of shrimp. what is the different between this and doing the same with frogs?

people breed things to get better color and traits they like.

there are people who like to keep wild varieties of shrimps and those who like the new fancy ones. i guess what i'm asking is why people are so against it in dart frogs, but don't bat an eye with other animals.

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Yobosayo

· #2 · May 29, 2011

popcorn time

Reactions: 5

GRIMM

· #3 · May 29, 2011

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66762-multispecies-reference-page.html

Tony

· #4 · May 29, 2011

The search function will bring up all the answers you seek.

Reactions: 3

vespers_

Discussion Starter · #5 · May 29, 2011

GRIMM said:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66762-multispecies-reference-page.html

sorry i meant creating hybrids. i did read the stickies on having different kinds in the same enclosure.

Pumilo

· #6 · May 29, 2011

Why do people see the barrel of the gun, yet step into the clearing anyway, arms waving and screaming, "shoot Meee! Over Here!!"?
This is so done to death. Please, do your homework. It is obvious you have not used the search function or spent any time at all researching and reading.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to put on my raincoat to prepare for the bloodbath!

Reactions: 5

vespers_

Discussion Starter · #7 · May 29, 2011

Pumilo said:
Why do people see the barrel of the gun, yet step into the clearing anyway, arms waving and screaming, "shoot Meee! Over Here!!"?
This is so done to death. Please, do your homework. It is obvious you have not used the search function or spent any time at all researching and reading.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to put on my raincoat to prepare for the bloodbath!

i'm not trying to start a flame war, as i said, i don't have feelings either way, i just want an honest answer that isn't full of rage... which is what is already starting.

btw, where is the search feature? i have looked for it and all i have seen is the threads that show up when you start a new ones (i read those).

Pumilo

· #8 · May 29, 2011

The search feature is located at the top of every page. It is in the green bar.

Reactions: 2

guppygal

· #9 · May 29, 2011

vespers_ said:
sorry i meant creating hybrids. i did read the stickies on having different kinds in the same enclosure.

Basically, it's an effort to keep dart frogs pure, as opposed to snakes, which have been crossed for different color patterns. PDF hobbyists, as you have noticed, are extremely rabid about mixing frogs. They will YELL at you and call you names. I think you've seen it in several posts.

There are other reasons as well. Some pdfs don't play well with others; some get too stressed out and 'croak', so to speak. The frogs aren't cheap, so it's best to choose a frog you like and learn everything you can about it. If you have a water feature, odds are that a sexed pair will breed. As long as you have the same kind of parent frog, the egg to tadpole to froglet experience is pretty awesome.

No, we don't mix because of some kid who wants to see a hybrid, and then try to sell it as a bonafide morph. Poison dart frogs are 'jewels of the rainforest' and we want to keep it that way within the hobby.

I can't say that we all don't mix. I'm sure you've been following my thread on my beautiful new tank with some neat features. It is unfortunate that most of the posters berate me for my choice of inhabitants rather than focus on the tank.

That's about it in a nutshell. Most definitely, follow the more experienced hobbyists' advice and look up the links.

good luck!
kristi
8yrs in the pdf hobby

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GRIMM

· #10 · May 29, 2011

vespers_ said:
sorry i meant creating hybrids. i did read the stickies on having different kinds in the same enclosure.

It boils down people wanting to keep bloodlines pure and as they occur naturally in the wild. Preserving the beauty that evolution gave us. I like the fact that people in the dart hobby dont feel the urge to create mutts like everything else out there...At least the majority dont anyways.

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vespers_

Discussion Starter · #11 · May 29, 2011

guppygal said:
Basically, it's an effort to keep dart frogs pure, as opposed to snakes, which have been crossed for different color patterns. PDF hobbyists, as you have noticed, are extremely rabid about mixing frogs. They will YELL at you and call you names. I think you've seen it in several posts.

There are other reasons as well. Some pdfs don't play well with others; some get too stressed out and 'croak', so to speak. The frogs aren't cheap, so it's best to choose a frog you like and learn everything you can about it. If you have a water feature, odds are that a sexed pair will breed. As long as you have the same kind of parent frog, the egg to tadpole to froglet experience is pretty awesome.

No, we don't mix because of some kid who wants to see a hybrid, and then try to sell it as a bonafide morph. Poison dart frogs are 'jewels of the rainforest' and we want to keep it that way within the hobby.

I can't say that we all don't mix. I'm sure you've been following my thread on my beautiful new tank with some neat features. It is unfortunate that most of the posters berate me for my choice of inhabitants rather than focus on the tank.

That's about it in a nutshell. Most definitely, follow the more experienced hobbyists' advice and look up the links.

good luck!
kristi
8yrs in the pdf hobby

ah i see, i just find the different view towards hybrids in dart frogs versus other animals a little strange. so there isn't some kind of biological reason behind it ex: weak frogs etc...?

i did see your thread and the comments, and was a little taken aback by it. i can understand stress related problems and all that and it definitely makes sense, but it can be done properly (with a load of effort) from what i have read.

vespers_

Discussion Starter · #12 · May 29, 2011

GRIMM said:
It boils down people wanting to keep bloodlines pure and as they occur naturally in the wild. Preserving the beauty that evolution gave us. I like the fact that people in the dart hobby dont feel the urge to create mutts like everything else out there...At least the majority dont anyways.

and they certainly are beautiful

. it's interesting to see the differences in the views of the different communities ex: dart frog people wanting to keep them pure versus shrimp people wanting to create new shrimp.

thanks for the replies everyone!

BlueRidge

· #13 · May 29, 2011

Yobosayo said:
popcorn time

LOL ^

I know alot of ppl say don't do it and I can see the problem if you have similar species. ie; if you have Azureus and cobalt tincs in the same tank, theres a chance they may breed creating hybrids.

I don't see an issue with different species, ie. thumbnails and leucs, etc. I mean, an azureus is in no way going to breed with an imitator or a vent.

That being said I have seen multiple species being kept in tanks like NAIB and I dont see the problem. (I know the "yeah but they have the experience to do that" comments coming).

BS i say!

They have the same issues that we all have, they just have a larger staff and a bigger backroom.

I currently have a trio of Azureus and a group of vents in one of my 40b verts and all are doing well. I never see the vents on the bottom of the tank, they absolutely love being up in the broms. On the flip side, the Azureus have never really climbed up the tank. They always stay on the bottom searching for springtails. Once I saw one up on a branch but it fell as they aren't the best climbers.

Bottom line, IMO, is trying to stay away from the interbreeding but if you have a large enough tank I say go for it... mix it up. My other 40b vert currently has a pair of Giant day geckos in it but soon with have a group of 6 terribilis and I can just hear the flames coming on that one but I don't see the issue. Ther terribis are big, the day geckos wont eat them and everyone will be happy.

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ChrisK

· #14 · May 29, 2011

JaredJ said:
My other 40b vert currently has a pair of Giant day geckos in it but soon with have a group of 6 terribilis and I can just hear the flames coming on that one but I don't see the issue. Ther terribis are big, the day geckos wont eat them and everyone will be happy.

You're planning on putting 6 terribilis in a tank with an 18*16 inch floor space (before background takes some up)?

Reactions: 3

Scott Richardson

· #15 · May 29, 2011

Some are against mixing because they honestly believe they are going to someday repopulate the wild with their frogs. The frogs are not in danger of extinction, their habitat is. So, there won't be anywhere to put them, and they probably wouldn't survive anyhow being captive bred.

Some are against mixing, because they are sheep. They read that mixing is bad, so their opinion is that it is bad. Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one.

Then there is the third group of anti mixing people........

Because of deforestation, there is a really good chance that these frogs may some day disappear from the wild because their natural habitat is no longer there. So, in what could be loosely considered a conservation effort, this group wants to keep all of the lines pure so there are prime examples of each frog around for the future. Different Morphs of the same species are really all the same family of frog, but their coloration differs from locale to locale. This is the reason that this group wants to keep the morphs seperate and keep as much locality data as possible, so it is available in the future.

Sorry that this is not explained better. Mixing always leads to discussion of Hybrids. Not all people that have mixed enclosures are irresponsible as they would have you believe. And having a mixed enclosure doesn't mean that person is going to unleash hybrids into the gene pool.

A mixed enclosure is NOT something that should be attempted by someone until they have experience with each of the species to be housed together. This will lead to less failure by knowing how to detect issues. You MUST know the normal behaviour of the frogs first.

And if a person does have a mixed enclosure, they MUST be responsible with the offspring in regards to the work of the third group above.

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mantisdragon91

· #16 · May 29, 2011

JaredJ said:
LOL ^

I know alot of ppl say don't do it and I can see the problem if you have similar species. ie; if you have Azureus and cobalt tincs in the same tank, theres a chance they may breed creating hybrids.

I don't see an issue with different species, ie. thumbnails and leucs, etc. I mean, an azureus is in no way going to breed with an imitator or a vent.

That being said I have seen multiple species being kept in tanks like NAIB and I dont see the problem. (I know the "yeah but they have the experience to do that" comments coming).

BS i say! They have the same issues that we all have, they just have a larger staff and a bigger backroom.

I currently have a trio of Azureus and a group of vents in one of my 40b verts and all are doing well. I never see the vents on the bottom of the tank, they absolutely love being up in the broms. On the flip side, the Azureus have never really climbed up the tank. They always stay on the bottom searching for springtails. Once I saw one up on a branch but it fell as they aren't the best climbers.

Bottom line, IMO, is trying to stay away from the interbreeding but if you have a large enough tank I say go for it... mix it up. My other 40b vert currently has a pair of Giant day geckos in it but soon with have a group of 6 terribilis and I can just hear the flames coming on that one but I don't see the issue. Ther terribis are big, the day geckos wont eat them and everyone will be happy.

I have a ton of experience mixing species and I would highly recommend against this combination. Grandis are some of the most curious and aggressive geckos in the genus and they do prey on small lizards/frogs in the wild. Even if the Terribilis are too big to eat they can still get injured/harrased by the Grandis.

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Scott Richardson

· #17 · May 29, 2011

JaredJ said:
I currently have a trio of Azureus and a group of vents in one of my 40b verts and all are doing well.

My other 40b vert currently has a pair of Giant day geckos in it but soon with have a group of 6 terribilis .

You are an idiot!! Not because of the mixed enclosures. But because of the size of the enclosures. That is irresponsible and just plain stupid.

Ross

· #18 · May 29, 2011

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Scott Richardson

· #19 · May 29, 2011

Pumilo said:
Why do people see the barrel of the gun, yet step into the clearing anyway, arms waving and screaming, "shoot Meee! Over Here!!"?

Why do you have to shoot everyone that asks the question? I, for one, completely understand and support your(not referring to you specifically Doug) wanting to keep bloodlines pure. And I, for one, would never introduce hybrids into the hobby. If I want to keep three male Terriblis in a 75 gallon enclosure and one is yellow, one is mint, and one is orange (just an example). How does it effect the hobby if proper husbandry methods are used and the frogs are fat, healthy and stress free?

Reactions: 1

EvilLost

· #20 · May 29, 2011 (Edited)

vespers_ said:
so i am extremely new to the whole dart frog thing (in fact i don't own any yet and i'm doing research to see if i want to keep them) and i've seen a whole lot of rage about mixing frogs. what i haven't seen though, is a concrete reason why people are so against it. i don't have any feelings for or against this, i just want to know why people don't like it so much.

isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such? in the shrimp breeding industry, people breed crazy mixed shrimps all the time until they get a nice one and then breed it out until they get a "new" kind of shrimp. what is the different between this and doing the same with frogs?

people breed things to get better color and traits they like.

there are people who like to keep wild varieties of shrimps and those who like the new fancy ones. i guess what i'm asking is why people are so against it in dart frogs, but don't bat an eye with other animals.

Before you get flamed by these boards too much, let me save you some headache:

IT IS A MATTER OF OPINION.

There is no hard scientific data to back either school of thought, and personally, I don't see any problem with mixing species.

The issue tends to arise, esp with exotics that have LOCALE specifics (ie same species but diff locales ARE diff even though they can be bred together). People like to keep the "pure" locales separate. I'm all for this but I don't see any reason why people can't ALSO create hybrids.

The issue I think most people have with it is that it dilutes the market and at times it will become hard to tell what exactly you are buying. However, I think this argument is utter bullshit tbh; if you are EXPERIENCED in the field then you will buy from a reputable dealer and not have a problem....if you are not experienced then it doesn't matter.

Just my 2 cents; I see nothing wrong with mixing as long as you are open about it if you try to sell your animals. Someone lieing about his mixed animals and selling them as "true" locales is a scammer (or unlikely, but possibly unaware)....but that has NOTHING to do with the mixing of the frogs themselves.

HOWEVER, as others have pointed out on this thread: There are correct and incorrect ways to mix. As has been said in this thread, and quoted by SCOTT RICHARDSON above.....mixing that many frogs in those tank sizes is plain dumb. Not because of the mixing of species but because of the lack of space/environment htey have.

Mixing geckos with frogs as well, not a wise idea....esp taking their sizes into consideration.

AS A GENERAL RULE: IF YOU PLAN ON MIXING MAKE SURE THEY HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME REQUIREMENTS, THE ANIMALS ARE THE SAME SIZE, AND THE ENCLOSURE IS *MORE THAN BIG ENOUGH* FOR THE ANIMALS. IN A MIXED TANK YOU NEED **MUCH MORE SPACE** THAN YOU WOULD IF THE ANIMALS WERE NOT MIXED. and DO NOT MIX UNTIL YOU ARE VERY EXPERIENCED.

You might THINK they are doing fine, but until you are truly experienced you don't have the ABILITY to see when something is wrong. They don't always show problems; in fact they usually HIDE problems.

EDIT: As a side note, I would like to point out that genetic mixing is the preference in nature. The more varied the genetic pool, the better the resulting animals tend to be. I do not understand the desire to "keep nature pure" by many keepers....nature itself is always evolving. If you were to look at these same animals in 1000 years odds are that these locales would have crossbred and possibly even created new locales....you guys are ok with the "naturally created" locales, but not the "purposely bred" locales....it just does not make sense to me. I am a keeper / forum member of several different exotics and although this attitude changes from animal to animal, there is NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS whatsoever. It is purely opinion. Until SOLID EVIDENCE can be shown one way or another, I will continue siding with the "pro-mixers."

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