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Oh and mate. Dirty water is cloudy, tanic water inhibits fungal growth and tints the water brown. When your throw a light on it at an angle, like the one that's remarkably obviously there, you can create the illusion of a different color of water, like blue or green or red...
The water in this stup is filthy and it's totally inappropriate for fish or any other vertebrate animal. It's as simple as that, I'm perfectly happy for you to continue being wrong though so please do carry on. I don't know what the anti fungal properties of tannic acid have to do with it.
Seems weird that you wouldn't know how to spell tannic after your life of 'professional aquatics' experience by the way.
 

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Ok, Guys. Let's stick to discussing the topic at hand. I think you have had your say on the fish-keeping matter and I don't want this to devolve any further.

Mark
 

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My original intention was proof of concept that gives me a curiosity to stare at. I wanted to show you can easily make an aquaponic display out of junk and I like frogs so I figured they would be the best choice to complete the nitrogen cycle
I think the enclosure itself is a cool concept, but I do agree with jgragg that it seems like you're trying to do too much in too small of a box. There really is not any frog I can think of that would be ideal here. Someone mentioned White's tree frogs - they would be too large and I think the humidity may be too high for them. Also heard Red Eyed Tree Frogs - humidity probably more in line but also too big. A pair of American Green Tree Frogs might be the right size, but humidity again, likely too high out of range. Even the Darts that might be suitable with some major modifications (completely altering the substrate) are likely too large for that space, with the few that stay small enough being among the worst for anyone new to amphibians IMO.

Regardless of this if you do manage to find a suitable frog you will want to cover the moss with something like leaf litter and/or replace it all-together, as mentioned it is a impaction risk, even to tree frogs who will still feed from the ground. Additionally, unless you know for certain trace mint oil is not harmful to amphibians (they respirate via skin) that needs to be replaced - not really something worth experimenting on.

I'm mildly familiar with the hydroponics, though no pro either, I am however a little puzzled by your reasoning for wanting to incorporate a land based animal. You mentioned completing the nitrogen cycle, however this setup should not need any land based animals given the bio load in the aquarium portion. My understanding is by pumping the water up into the vivarium the fish waste provides fertilizer to the plants (via nitrogen cycle) in the form of nitrates. Hydroponics setups rarely (if ever) also incorporate land based animals, especially as normally the plants are periodically harvested and doing do would prove more problematic/introduce additional waste to the harvested plant. In this situation you would also just be increasing the amount of ammonia in the fish enclosure, which based on overall size/bio load may be near capacity for the nitrifying bacteria.

If you really want to incorporate life in the top portion of this system I would highly recommend you look into invertebrates. Perhaps a tarantula, or some type of Mantids - the tropical varieties can be stunning. If the end goal is Coqui Frogs I believe you will have more luck starting a vivarium from scratch with them in mind separate from this enclosure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Ok, Guys. Let's stick to discussing the topic at hand. I think you have had your say on the fish-keeping matter and I don't want this to devolve any further.

Mark
Thank you.

I think the idea was fine but the help care knowledge was severely lacking in this design.

For the next design I'll be incorporating the advice here and use a 75-200g long for the next build. Should give me a lot more vertical space. For the foam I think I'll add moisture pockets and then the pump can be hooked up to a misting bar and a waterfall feature...

I think I'll also play around with the hydroponics media too. A flatter moss cover should reduce ingestion of foreign material if I use a pillow moss or something as a cover.

Or I could do a light cover crop to essentially just block out the media layer. I think I also want a charcoal layer instead of perlite the incorporated reactor it too mechanical in regards to filtration and it stays too wet, so those large charcoal chips used for springtails should probably do the trick better.

Also the next terrarium I'll do bamboo. Should be the best option for aesthetic and utility for an arboreal species.

Although now I have a design for a terrestrial system in my head...

I think I'll build that first actually.

I have a spare 30x12x18, figure... about a 7 inch space for the aquatic section so final space would be 30x10x11

Is this size better for a terrestrial frog like a tinc or something?
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
I think the enclosure itself is a cool concept, but I do agree with jgragg that it seems like you're trying to do too much in too small of a box. There really is not any frog I can think of that would be ideal here. Someone mentioned White's tree frogs - they would be too large and I think the humidity may be too high for them. Also heard Red Eyed Tree Frogs - humidity probably more in line but also too big. A pair of American Green Tree Frogs might be the right size, but humidity again, likely too high out of range. Even the Darts that might be suitable with some major modifications (completely altering the substrate) are likely too large for that space, with the few that stay small enough being among the worst for anyone new to amphibians IMO.

Regardless of this if you do manage to find a suitable frog you will want to cover the moss with something like leaf litter and/or replace it all-together, as mentioned it is a impaction risk, even to tree frogs who will still feed from the ground. Additionally, unless you know for certain trace mint oil is not harmful to amphibians (they respirate via skin) that needs to be replaced - not really something worth experimenting on.

I'm mildly familiar with the hydroponics, though no pro either, I am however a little puzzled by your reasoning for wanting to incorporate a land based animal. You mentioned completing the nitrogen cycle, however this setup should not need any land based animals given the bio load in the aquarium portion. My understanding is by pumping the water up into the vivarium the fish waste provides fertilizer to the plants (via nitrogen cycle) in the form of nitrates. Hydroponics setups rarely (if ever) also incorporate land based animals, especially as normally the plants are periodically harvested and doing do would prove more problematic/introduce additional waste to the harvested plant. In this situation you would also just be increasing the amount of ammonia in the fish enclosure, which based on overall size/bio load may be near capacity for the nitrifying bacteria.

If you really want to incorporate life in the top portion of this system I would highly recommend you look into invertebrates. Perhaps a tarantula, or some type of Mantids - the tropical varieties can be stunning. If the end goal is Coqui Frogs I believe you will have more luck starting a vivarium from scratch with them in mind separate from this enclosure.
You're not wrong. I should have done more froggy homework this setup is not suitable for frogs by the advice I'm seeing here. So the next project will be larger.
Also any issue with using Catappa leaves as litter?

As for why terrestrial.
So aquaponics is flexible, but when done in large scale the fish used (carp) poop and eat a LOT. That level of N is more than suitable.

But the smaller you scale it down the less N your fish are producing. Small wild breed guppies aren't pumping out a ton of nitrogen, on top of that I'm changing the water out for pure RODI every 3 days so the N in the water won't spike and start burning fish gills. If you add a terrestrial animal its waste will get stuck around the coco layer and decay there, creating little lumps of accessible organic nitrogen at the root zone in addition to the nitrogen dissolved in to the circulating water.

That's why even with media based hydro the coco or media is often amended with organics like worm castings, crab meal, guano, manure etc.

Everybody seems to have their own recommendation on a hydro media mix, I've run coco hydro just with liquid ferts and I've run it with all the fixings. Just depends on what you're growing I guess.

I hope that explains it well. English was not my first or second language so I still find that with typing it's hard to get what I'm saying out clearly.
 

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I would advise against moss as a ground covering. Frogs don’t need it and it’s bad for their feet. Go for lots of leaf litter instead. Same thing for water features - frogs don’t need them and they can be dangerous. Otherwise good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
I would advise against moss as a ground covering. Frogs don’t need it and it’s bad for their feet. Go for lots of leaf litter instead. Same thing for water features - frogs don’t need them and they can be dangerous. Otherwise good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Oh wow. I didn't even know that. Jeeze. That sucks. Are there other options besides heavy leaf litter?

I guess if a trickle is an issue I could do a drip feed under the actual standing area for the frogs.. or create an enclosed water feature Shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Now I'm excited to see what I can do
 

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Oh wow. I didn't even know that. Jeeze. That sucks. Are there other options besides heavy leaf litter?

I guess if a trickle is an issue I could do a drip feed under the actual standing area for the frogs.. or create an enclosed water feature Shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Now I'm excited to see what I can do
Darts absolutely need the leaf litter - allows more coverage, sense of security, reduces the chance of them eating substrate while feeding, and arguably the most important it helps keep their feet dryer, constantly wet feet will cause health issues. While it's not considered as vital for tree frogs (don't spend as much time on ground) it's still very beneficial.

I imagine if starting from scratch you could pump the water directly into the substrate but below the layer of leaf litter. This would also help to keep the water containing more ammonia, nitrite & nitrate away from the frogs.

I would imagine the idea behind something like this is to minimize inputs and outputs, but you also mentioned you have to do RO water changes every 3 days - in a true aquaponic setting wouldn't you want the N to be absorbed into the plants at a rate that allows N removal via harvesting the plant matter, and thereby the water changes obsolete?

I do find the concept of using fish waste to help with plant growth in a vivarium interesting, however I'd also advise you to search for posts on this forum about tricks for managing plant growth, you'll likely find that once the bioactive vivariums are established the largest 'complaint' related to plants is keeping them trimmed back enough they don't overwhelm the tank. To some extent you're kind of trying to solve for a problem that doesn't really exist. I'm not suggesting you cannot accomplish this, but I think you would have more long term success if you separated the aquaponic idea from the vivarium.

I'm confident you have the skillset to create an awesome false bottom bioactive vivarium for Coqui's, why try to do too much 'ok' when you can do one thing really well?
 

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Small wild breed guppies aren't pumping out a ton of nitrogen, on top of that I'm changing the water out for pure RODI every 3 days so the N in the water won't spike and start burning fish gills.
keeping guppies (a brackish water fish) or almost any other livebearer in pure RODI water
life of professional aquatics experience
Pick one. It would be inappropriate to keep any fish in a tiny tray of filthy water like this, even less appropriate to keep a brackish water fish in a tiny tray of water that's been stripped of absolutely all minerals. Also, if you really are replacing the water with pure RODI ever three days and it's still that cloudly then your 'system' has even bigger problems than you might realise.
You have a vision that it would be possible to fully realise, but you badly need to go back to the drawing board when it comes to animal welfare.
Encyclia I appreciate you want to avoid discussions getting heated but I don't see how the board can promote specific standards of care for dart frogs so aggressively and turn a blind eye to this degree of negligent animal abuse when it comes to fish, even guppies when they're being used as live food for larger fish.
I don't imagine anyone would be impressed if I was 'breeding' dart frogs to feed to Leimadophis epinephelus in comparably inhumane and inappropriate conditions and frogs don't meaningfully posess any greater capacity for suffering than fish do, you can remove most of their brain without killing them and they will still hop, swim and even swallow food.
I'm not taking a position on using vertebrates as live food but even when they're being raised as feedstock more consideration should be given to animal welfare than is evident here.
This guy is specifically claiming to be speaking from authority based on a life of professional aquatics experience so I'm not willing to give him a pass for animal cruelty against fish.
I don't know about America but in the UK keeping guppies in this set up would actually be considered a crime under the animal welfare act. We have plenty of members from the UK here, it's relevant to point out that this setup would actually be considered to be criminally negligent under our national law.
 

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Pick one. It would be inappropriate to keep any fish in a tiny tray of filthy water like this, even less appropriate to keep a brackish water fish in a tiny tray of water that's been stripped of absolutely all minerals. Also, if you really are replacing the water with pure RODI ever three days and it's still that cloudly then your 'system' has even bigger problems than you might realise.
You have a vision that it would be possible to fully realise, but you badly need to go back to the drawing board when it comes to animal welfare.
Encyclia I appreciate you want to avoid discussions getting heated but I don't see how the board can promote specific standards of care for dart frogs so aggressively and turn a blind eye to this degree of negligent animal abuse when it comes to fish, even guppies when they're being used as live food for larger fish.
I don't imagine anyone would be impressed if I was 'breeding' dart frogs to feed to Leimadophis epinephelus in comparably inhumane and inappropriate conditions and frogs don't meaningfully posess any greater capacity for suffering than fish do, you can remove most of their brain without killing them and they will still hop, swim and even swallow food.
I'm not taking a position on using vertebrates as live food but even when they're being raised as feedstock more consideration should be given to animal welfare than is evident here.
This guy is specifically claiming to be speaking from authority based on a life of professional aquatics experience so I'm not willing to give him a pass for animal cruelty against fish.
I don't know about America but in the UK keeping guppies in this set up would actually be considered a crime under the animal welfare act. We have plenty of members from the UK here, it's relevant to point out that this setup would actually be considered to be criminally negligent under our national law.
I don’t believe it would be a crime here. Tiny, unsuitable fish bowls and tanks are all over the market here. But I agree with your sentiments, also to point out that this is an aquaponic, not a hydroponic set up. Hydroponics don’t involve fish as the source of nutrients in the water. I’ve been tempted to try aquaponic set ups, but I just haven’t felt right about keeping fish like that. I think you can get good results just mixing your own nutrients, and I’d gladly give OP tips on that through a private message!

I also have seen people with paludarium type set ups, where there are fish in the water serving a similar function to plants growing out of the water...but once again, I’m uncomfortable with having even guppies in such a limited space (plus there’s definitely still the need for a lot of water change. And then the frogs usually don’t need all that water there. As have been stated, these things are cool concepts, but I think it’s best for the animals to have them separately, where you can gear the whole setup to just their optimal needs (for both the fish and frogs). And also, I think hydroponics, sans fish, allows for more control in things like PH and nutrient content that goes toward growing your plants. IMO anyway.
 

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Sorry but I have a life of professional experience with aquatics. This setup is perfectly fine.

And if it assuages your fears the feeder guppies will get rotated out in to the mouth of some hungry fish and coral when they exceed appropriate size so don't worry.
If you show this on any fishkeeping forum they will tell you this is not okay. It's way to small to keep any fish in. And yes it's filthy water not a black water biotope, wouldn't keep my fish in that.
 
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