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So I've read a lot about the possibility of overfeeding darts. Does anyone have like comparison pictures of a healthy and overweight frog of the same species?
What do overweight darts look like?
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Obesity is definitely a concern with captive anurans. One of the warning signs is enlarged supratympanic arches, but I don't think this is something that can be observed on darts. Looking at pictures of healthy darts in the wild can be a good way to get ideas about proper body shape. I know that in large-bodied frogs (Litoria caerulea, Pyxicephalus adspersus, etc...) there can be an accumulation of fat in the eye (ocular lipidosis) that can be debilitating and can eventually lead to death from blindness-related starvation.
Actually you don't have to feed them a ton.. people routinely overestimate the amount needed for the frogs on a daily basis.Yeah. You would have to feed them a TON for noticeable obesity. The sign that would be the most simple is simply a huge ol' bellybut that would take a ton of feeding.
Read through this thread. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...n-overfeeding-split-beginners-discussion.html
Typically what the hobby considers "healthy" weight are obese when compared to the wild frogs. Pictures of the frogs taken in the wild can be compared with pictures taken in terrariums to demonstrate the difference.
Ed
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I don't think my frogs are obese, but it is one of those worries in the back of my mind. I was more wondering if anyone had a comparison picture so that it would be easy to say "yeah, this frog is definitely skinny/healthy/fat".
Also, I have to apologize, I'm not that familiar with frog anatomy (and a google search didn't do me much good). What do "enlarged supratympanic arches" look like?
Also, I have to apologize, I'm not that familiar with frog anatomy (and a google search didn't do me much good). What do "enlarged supratympanic arches" look like?
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using my context detective skills and guessing that 'tympanic' is somewhere around the ears... i'm thinking that's the frogs you see w/ the big weird fat rolls on the sides of their heads. correct me if i'm wrong???
sorta like this guy's ... see that roll behind his eye?
(not my photo, google search for fat frog)
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not saying this particular frog is overweight, because i don't know jack about this species, but occasionally you'll see a dart w/ a big ole weird roll on the side of his head like that... good example would be the poor tincs living at the aquarium near my house.
as for some species being more susceptible to overfeeding than others, my thumbs dont seem to mind stopping when they're full and leaving a few stragglers around the viv to munch on over the next couple of days. my tincs on the other hand, will ensure that they've eaten every.single.fly. they can find immediately.
thoughts from the more experienced guys? i'd love to see comparison shots of "fat" vs "healthy" as well. i've noticed my leucs are quite a bit less rotund than many of the others i've seen photos of here on the board. i often wonder if i'm underfeeding them, but they seem to be pretty active and healthy...
sorta like this guy's ... see that roll behind his eye?
(not my photo, google search for fat frog)
not saying this particular frog is overweight, because i don't know jack about this species, but occasionally you'll see a dart w/ a big ole weird roll on the side of his head like that... good example would be the poor tincs living at the aquarium near my house.
as for some species being more susceptible to overfeeding than others, my thumbs dont seem to mind stopping when they're full and leaving a few stragglers around the viv to munch on over the next couple of days. my tincs on the other hand, will ensure that they've eaten every.single.fly. they can find immediately.
thoughts from the more experienced guys? i'd love to see comparison shots of "fat" vs "healthy" as well. i've noticed my leucs are quite a bit less rotund than many of the others i've seen photos of here on the board. i often wonder if i'm underfeeding them, but they seem to be pretty active and healthy...
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gahhhh and because curiosity killed the cat, I'll include a picture of one of my azureus. He looks very pear-shaped from a top view.....
Same frog in both pictures
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Same frog in both pictures
Corneal lipidosis hasn't to my knowledge been reported from dendrobatids, it appears to be most commonly found in female hylids, and larger bodied ranid type frogs. While obesity can be part of the issue with corneal lipidosis, there appears to be an issue with the feeders commonly used with those frogs. Contrary to a lot of the misinformation on the internet, larger frogs fed rodents are not condemed to corneal lipidosis, as it also documented in occuring in many anurans that were never offered rodents as prey. The issue seems to be in the frequency of the feeding in conjuction with obesity and possibly an issue with fat mobilization (in females) for ovulation.
Frogs (all frogs) are hardwired to eat as much as possible whenever it is possible as there isn't any guarantee that a lot of food will be available the next day, next week or even next month. In addition, dendrobatids in the wild forage for thier food resulting in more activity than that of dendrobatids found in captivity who are not only typically fed lots of melanogaster but are given access to microfauna so they can in effect feed continously with little effort. The frogs are also not subjected to periods of reduced food availability such as that found in the wild.
In dendrobatids, the main fat stores are in the fat pads in the abdomen. If the frogs are fed in excess, not only will these become large but you can also get fat storage in the liver (fatty liver) and in real excess depositions elsewhere in the body (the fat rolls near the eyes mentioned above).
Some of the fall out of this can be seen by the comments about how frequently egg clutches are laid as when the enviromental conditions are correct, fat stores are the next main trigger. If there are ample fat stores, the frogs will continually produce eggs even if there are insufficient nutrients to provision the eggs properly with vitamins or minerals (one of the causes of spindly leg).
The whole fat frog mentality is entrenched enough that frogs whose body conformations approach that of wild frogs are often commented on as being too thin..or looking starved. Having pictures to compare one another to isn't always a help as you can't get a hold of when too fat occurs as typically the frogs only look obese when the situation is getting out of hand.
There are a number of threads in which this has all been hashed over several times. I linked to one of the better ones above and as was noted in that thread, one of the most common ways people over feed is through frequency of feedings....
Frogs (all frogs) are hardwired to eat as much as possible whenever it is possible as there isn't any guarantee that a lot of food will be available the next day, next week or even next month. In addition, dendrobatids in the wild forage for thier food resulting in more activity than that of dendrobatids found in captivity who are not only typically fed lots of melanogaster but are given access to microfauna so they can in effect feed continously with little effort. The frogs are also not subjected to periods of reduced food availability such as that found in the wild.
In dendrobatids, the main fat stores are in the fat pads in the abdomen. If the frogs are fed in excess, not only will these become large but you can also get fat storage in the liver (fatty liver) and in real excess depositions elsewhere in the body (the fat rolls near the eyes mentioned above).
Some of the fall out of this can be seen by the comments about how frequently egg clutches are laid as when the enviromental conditions are correct, fat stores are the next main trigger. If there are ample fat stores, the frogs will continually produce eggs even if there are insufficient nutrients to provision the eggs properly with vitamins or minerals (one of the causes of spindly leg).
The whole fat frog mentality is entrenched enough that frogs whose body conformations approach that of wild frogs are often commented on as being too thin..or looking starved. Having pictures to compare one another to isn't always a help as you can't get a hold of when too fat occurs as typically the frogs only look obese when the situation is getting out of hand.
There are a number of threads in which this has all been hashed over several times. I linked to one of the better ones above and as was noted in that thread, one of the most common ways people over feed is through frequency of feedings....
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Corneal lipidosis....I knew ocular lipidosis didn't sound right but I was just going off of memory. Thanks for the clarification Ed.
My female dart is DEFINITELY overweight! It only happened recently. I don't know her exact age, but I think she is somewhere around 8 years old. She started getting fat about two months ago, around the same time that I introduced my little blue guy (who I THINK is a male but he's not quite old enough to tell).
I don't feed them everyday. Usually every other day or every third day. But could it be that she is still eating too much?
I thought maybe it was just because she is old.
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I don't feed them everyday. Usually every other day or every third day. But could it be that she is still eating too much?
I thought maybe it was just because she is old.
THe auratus looks way too fat to me.... And why do you have a possible male azureus with a female auratus?
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Ok THAT looks like a water retention problem to me.
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I'd suspect some other underlying health issue with that auratus-it looks more bloated than obese.
I called the vet and they want $50 just to look at her. I can't afford that right now because I just lost my job
Is there anything I can do with something I can buy at the store? Someone recommended erythromycin to me to make sure the water is clean, and I have her in a separate tank at the moment so I can monitor her. Suggestions on how to fix the bloat?
PLEASE HELP! I'm worried she is on her way out, and I've had her 5 years (she's 7 years old)
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I would definitely get my hands on some amphibian ringers solution. I think I've read on the boards that you mightbe able to substitute it with pedialyte?
Do a search on the forums about it; here are some threads I found on the subject of bloating that I'd suggest you read through:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...tment/84884-amphibious-ringers-make-home.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...5511-bloated-southern-variabilis-froglet.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...ick-frog-probably-bloat-pics-please-help.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/75655-bacterial-infection.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/16433-emergency-supportive-care.html
I would set up a QT container for the frog so you can keep him under observation
Do a search on the forums about it; here are some threads I found on the subject of bloating that I'd suggest you read through:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...tment/84884-amphibious-ringers-make-home.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...5511-bloated-southern-variabilis-froglet.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...ick-frog-probably-bloat-pics-please-help.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/75655-bacterial-infection.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/16433-emergency-supportive-care.html
I would set up a QT container for the frog so you can keep him under observation
Define a little, a one gram frog at 78 F only needs about 40 flies a day one at a cooler temperature requires fewer, one at 80 F requires more. If you have added springtails and/or isopods to the enclosure then they need less.
The vast majority of frogs in the hobby are obese to morbidly obese.
some comments
Ed
The vast majority of frogs in the hobby are obese to morbidly obese.
some comments
Ed
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