Wasting frog

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farmchica22

Discussion Starter · Feb 3, 2005

I need some help with locating some vitamins I guess...

I recently lost one turquoise/bronze juvenile auratus and am about to lose the replacement for that one I fear (this one is turquoise/bronze as well)....

The last one lost the stickiness of his tongue (or so we are assuming) and just wasted away. Are there any vitamins/medications I could give him? We are planning on putting him in an isolation tank and watching him more closely...

I really don't know what to do....

Thanks,
-Jen

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G

· #2 · Feb 3, 2005

Hey Jen sorry to hear this.

What are you supplimenting with, how often?
Have you had fecals ran, are these recent imports?
How long have you had them?

farmchica22

Discussion Starter · #3 · Feb 3, 2005

There are currently 2 auratus in my 10 gallon tank, both from Quality Exotics. One (the extremely fat one) I got on 12/28/04, the other one (the one I'm worried about) I picked up just a couple of weeks ago. After isolating him tonight briefly to watch him feed it seemed as though he is in fact able to catch flies (although it took him roughly 30 minutes to catch 6 flies). Both frogs seem to take an unusually long time in catching flies period...at least in comparison to my boyfriend's leucs. I have no idea if this is the normal behavior for auratus...

They are currently receiving no supplements, should they be? And if so what do you recommend?

Bill at Quality Exotics suggested that the last one lost the stickiness to his tongue due to possible out-competition by the other one...I don't think that is happening with this newest one but should I be especially worried about it? The other one is substantially fatter than the one in question.

Would feeding them something else besides just fruit flies help at all?

Any suggestions are more than welcome

.

-Jen

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farmchica22

Discussion Starter · #4 · Feb 3, 2005

I forgot to mention that they are both about 6 months old and that no fecals have been run as of yet.

bbrock

· #5 · Feb 3, 2005

This is a vitamin A defficiency. Go to your pet store and buy whatever reptile vitamin supplement they have. Herptivite is good. Since they seem to still be able to eat, hopefully that is all you will need to do. If they couldn't eat, you might have to administer oral supplement but I wouldn't stress them if they can get some dusted flies down.

JoshKaptur

· #6 · Feb 3, 2005

To reiterate, dart frog food should be dusted regularly. No supplementation will almost certainly result in death. The "loss of stickiness" of the tongue is more likely a loss of motor function due to calcium and/or vitimin deficiency. I have had this happen with parasitic infestation as well (parasite was robbing frog of nutrients... in essence the same effect as under-supplementing).

Alternating Herptivite and RepCal daily for froglets is often recommended, though some (like me) prefer not to supplement every day. I do a herpivite, repcal, off day rotation (3 days total).

hth,
Josh

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farmchica22

Discussion Starter · #7 · Feb 3, 2005

Okay, the other frog just had what appeared to be a seizure....

I opened the tank up like I normally do to start the usual spray down, she was in the back corner of the tank and then suddenly launched herself to the front went all stiff and her back legs started jerking a little. I immediatly took her out, looked her over saw she was still alive and was about to set her in a tupperware when she suddenly regained herself and jumped onto the nearby couch. She seems fine now...a little confused as to why she is not back in the tank yet but other wise okay....

This is the one that there seemed nothing wrong with.....is it because I haven't been supplementing them?

-Jen

ChrisMc

· #8 · Feb 3, 2005

This is the classical symptoms of vitamin deficiency. Lack of calcium will cause muscles to spasm and become rigid.

farmchica22

Discussion Starter · #9 · Feb 3, 2005

Thank you all for your input!!! I am on my way to the petstore tonight to pick up some Herptivite which will hopefully clear things up.

G

· #10 · Feb 3, 2005

The spasms are most likely from a calcium deficiency. Pick some Reptical too. I would also get some Pedialyte and soak the frog. This will help get some energy into him.

To soak:
Get a tupperware style container that is big enought to hold the frog. I use the round ones about 2" deep x 4" diam. Fill the container with 3/4" to 1" of Pedialyte and some sphagnum moss so the frog won't drown it its too week to hold itself up. The the frog soak for about 30 mins and lightly rinse him off when you are done.

bbrock

· #11 · Feb 4, 2005

Yes, the seizure takes the symptoms out of vitamin A defficiency and puts it into calcium deficiency. A loss of tongue "stickiness" is usually vitamin A deficiency but as others have said, loss of motor function can make a malfunctioning tongue look like its not sticky.

A better treatment soak is calcium gluconate available from a vet. If I recall, it gets diluted 10:1 from how it is packaged for cattle.

G

· #12 · Feb 11, 2005

I have a frog that is trying to eat but either its tongue isn't stick or it isn't using its tongue! I can't really tell. Anyway, its not able to eat because of this and its been losing weight steadily. Is there a vitamin soak that I can give this frog? Will pedialyte provide any vitamins? I don't want to lose this frog

bbrock

· #13 · Feb 11, 2005

xplodee said:
I have a frog that is trying to eat but either its tongue isn't stick or it isn't using its tongue! I can't really tell. Anyway, its not able to eat because of this and its been losing weight steadily. Is there a vitamin soak that I can give this frog? Will pedialyte provide any vitamins? I don't want to lose this frog

If it's a calcium problem, it is easily treatable. I'm not sure how much calcium pedialyte provides but I did once mix some calcium powder in pedialyte to soak a frog and it recoverd. But the best stuff is calcium gluconate that you can get from a vet for about $5 for a huge bottle. You need to dilute it 10 to 1 I believe and then you can use that as a soak. I'm not sure about soaks to supply other vitamins. There are some spray on vitamin supplements (I think by T-Rex) but I've heard really bad things about them. Might work for a quick stopgap to get the frog eating again. And get some good vitamin and mineral supplements to dust the food with in the future.

Good luck.

elmoisfive

· #14 · Feb 12, 2005

We routinely dust our FFs with a 1:1 mix of Rep-cal/Herptivite. Not only does it provide a nice mineral/vitamin supplement, it has the advantage of making the FFs very light colored and easy for the frogs to spot. Good luck bringing your frog back to health.

Elmo

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vet_boy77

· #15 · Feb 12, 2005

I also agree that this sounds like more of sudden (acute) calcium deficiency.

If I recall correctly, pedialyte has a lot of electrolytes and dextrose, but very little calcium. Pedialyte soaks will help combat dehydration and hypoglycemia from poor nutrition (or being too sick to eat), but won't do much for the underlying problem. I recommend calcium gulconate provided by a vet. Soaking in dilute calcium solution may help allivate these acute epsides and help your frog pull through.

For the long run, regular dusting is a must. I use a 50:50 mix of Herpivite and RepCal, and I usually dust at every feeding. Not only will this help prevent acute hypocalcemia, but also prevent long term calcium deficiency such as metabolic bone disease.

Best of luck.
vet_boy77

Ed

· #16 · Feb 22, 2005

And just an FYI, inability to feed due to calcium deficiency may not be caused by loss of motor functions but by the bones that control the tongue beginning to deform due to lack of calcium.

Ed

bbrock

· #17 · Feb 22, 2005

Ed said:
And just an FYI, inability to feed due to calcium deficiency may not be caused by loss of motor functions but by the bones that control the tongue beginning to deform due to lack of calcium.

Ed

Ed, I've learned never to doubt your wisdom regarding nutrition so am sure this is true. However, the 3 or so cases of calcium deficiency I've seen indicate that moter function was the issue. Two of the cases involved lack of coordination and spasms/seizures which resolved within hours of soaking in calcium gluconate. There were no visible signs of bone deformity in these frogs and obviously tongue muscles can't recalcify that quickly. The third case was a frog with obvious signs of decalcification in it's hind legs (the legs were floppy). This frog also recovered completely following Ca gluconate treatment.

BTW, all of these frogs were pumilio, either females actively laying eggs or juveniles in development and they were all getting calcium supplementation that has been adequate for all of my other frogs. These experiences plus one other have led me to provide UVB for all of my pumilio.

Ed

· #18 · Feb 22, 2005

Hi Brent,

The causes of the seizures is due to the increase in time required to transport sufficient calcium to permit relaxation (low levels of calcium prevent relaxation of the muscles). Frogs that are demonstrating these symptoms are often able to behave normally and feed normally until startled or stressed at which point the seizures occur. This is often quickly corrected by supplying enough calcium to correct the cellular imbalances (such as soaking in calcium gluconate)

I am interested in the report of lack of coordination as this is different from what I have seen (as indicated above) and I do not think it has been documented in the literature as of yet. What were the exact symptoms with respect to the feeding.

Hind limbs are often early indicators but the mandibles and the tongue bones can also be often affected at the same time as the hind limbs.
On occasion the frogs can learn to compenstate for the problems with the tongue by adopting a lunge and grab feeding behavior as opposed to a tongue flick feeding behavior.

Ed

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bbrock

· #19 · Feb 23, 2005

Ed said:
I am interested in the report of lack of coordination as this is different from what I have seen (as indicated above) and I do not think it has been documented in the literature as of yet. What were the exact symptoms with respect to the feeding. Ed

The frogs that showed lack of coordination were overall clumsy, spent more time than usual on the ground, and fumbled a bit when trying to climb up into the vegetation. Problems with feeding were more associated with aim I would say. A somewhat wobbly frog taking aim on an insect with frequent misses. When they did make contact, they were able to eat okay. I would say the symptoms would have been subtle to unnoticed by the casual observer but for anyone who knew the animal's individual behavior, it was pretty easy to spot.

Ed

· #20 · Feb 23, 2005

Thanks Brent.
Do you think the wobbliness could have been due to the beginning of bone deformation reducing mobility?
Ed

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