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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There have been a large number of wild-collected D. tinctorius on offer from quite a few frog re-sellers lately and I want to provide a warning to people that may be purchasing these frogs. It's clear that their large size and cheap price are very tempting (to me as well), but the drawbacks to bringing potentially pathogenic diseases into one's frog collection should not be easily dismissed.

Wild-collected tinctorius can carry a plethora of parasites that can easily be passed to other frogs in your own collection (as well as others collections when these frogs and their progeny are transferred about in the hobby). There's is no doubt that the frogs are undertreated (if they are treated at all) for parasites and potentially devastating fungal diseases. There are likely completely new pathogens that are being imported with these frogs, some of which potentially could be released into the mainland U.S. by careless froggers.

Finally, it has been the experience of many froggers that have purchased these wild-collected frogs over the years (including the recent 2009 Suriname imports), that there is a large percentage of loss of these frogs. They are very big and beautiful because they come from the wild, but are not very adaptable to terrarium life (note the great amount of nose and head rub that these frogs develop when constrainted to small spaces).

Although captive-born D. tinctorius are generally very hardy and bold in the terrarium, I think that these wild-collected frogs should be considered only by very advanced hobbyists who have access to a good frog vet and aren't too concerned about the high mortality rate in these imports.

This is my personal opinion, of course. Richard.
 

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They are very tempting.
Some good things to think about.
But, are you suggesting these frogs should receive shotgun treatments for all pathogens?
IMO, it's possible their fecals won't show any problems yet. Depending on how long they've been held at a collection site and how much stress they have endured. Their immune systems may not have been compromised enough yet, that the pathogens would have built up to very detectable levels.
I'd also be interested if you have some knowledge of NEW pathogens, or if this is just speculation.
How many would a plethora be? dozens???
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
A good number of people that I know who purchased D. tinctorius from the 2009 imports (which came through a much more reputable importer) reported losses over the first year that they had the frogs. Since I don't have any of these frogs in my personal collection, I don't have a strong opinion about how to treat these frogs. I think I would be likely to have fecals performed and treat for as many pathogens that were discovered.

As far as NEW pathogens, you have to keep in mind that Chytrid is a NEW pathogen. I believe that there are likely other pathogens coming-in with wild-collected frogs that we are currently not testing for.

Take care, Richard.

They are very tempting.
Some good things to think about.
But, are you suggesting these frogs should receive shotgun treatments for all pathogens?
IMO, it's possible their fecals won't show any problems yet. Depending on how long they've been held at a collection site and how much stress they have endured. Their immune systems may not have been compromised enough yet, that the pathogens would have built up to very detectable levels.
I'd also be interested if you have some knowledge of NEW pathogens, or if this is just speculation.
How many would a plethora be? dozens???
 
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I agree. The risks are probably higher with any WC individuals. I just don't think many symptoms would manifest this early. Unless the frogs are not feeding, you might not see any problems for a while.
I guess it comes down to how much effort someone wants to put into them.
As long as they are willing to do proper quarantining procedures, follow good husbandry principles, be alert for problems and prepared to act on them.
These are all things that should be done with any new frogs.
As you say, probably the biggest risk is how they are able to adapt to captivity.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I would add to my first post in saying that D. tinctorius (and all dendrobtid frogs) are listed as CITES II species (vulnerable to extirpations or extinction). The scientific advisory group to CITES has requested that Suriname close its exports of dendrobatids, but the exporting continues without a single field study to determine the impacts of the collections. People who are buying these frogs, against the wishes of CITES, are contributing to the potential decline and extirpation of populations of D. tinctorius in Suriname.

Richard.
 

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I would add to my first post in saying that D. tinctorius (and all dendrobtid frogs) are listed as CITES II species (vulnerable to extirpations or extinction). The scientific advisory group to CITES has requested that Suriname close its exports of dendrobatids, but the exporting continues without a single field study to determine the impacts of the collections. People who are buying these frogs, against the wishes of CITES, are contributing to the potential decline and extirpation of populations of D. tinctorius in Suriname.

Richard.
Richard, I understand your concern, however they are coming in with CITES permits, valid permits, meaning CITES is currently ok with it. Maybe another branch of the CITES organization is not, but if you try to back up your reasoning with info that is not valid your argument does'nt really work, Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi Bill,

Please have a look at the CITES site. Their scientific advisory committee has been asking Suriname to close its exports since the 1990s. Ultimately, it is up to the individual countries to set the exports for themselves (though I understand from US FWS that many nations have signed-on to a letter asking Madagascar to stop exporting many of its endemic species). The dart frog hobby doesn't do any species any good by taking advantage of uncaring or unscrupulous countries' willingness to exploit their native floras or faunas.

Take care, Richard.

Richard, I understand your concern, however they are coming in with CITES permits, valid permits, meaning CITES is currently ok with it. Maybe another branch of the CITES organization is not, but if you try to back up your reasoning with info that is not valid your argument does'nt really work, Bill
 

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Losses? I haven't lost any that have come in this year, and none in 2010.....

These things are bullet proof compared to Hyla or Phyllomedusa, and yes, I'm keeping them long term.......Only one DOA from the shipments I've un-packed to boot.......
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hi Eric,

That is NOT the experience of many members here who purchased imported D. tinctorius in 2009. Why don't you keep a log of the feedback you get from your purchasors over the next year and let us know how it worked out.

Then again, every importer I have ever questioned about their imports have claimed that not a single animal has ever died, EVER! So, I wouldn't expect any difference here.

Richard.

Losses? I haven't lost any that have come in this year, and none in 2010.....

These things are bullet proof compared to Hyla or Phyllomedusa, and yes, I'm keeping them long term.......Only one DOA from the shipments I've un-packed to boot.......
 

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I have also not lost any personally but all mine were treated. I however do listen to feedback and I have only had two reported deaths. These tincs are pretty sturdy compared to last years imports in which I had around 5-6 die. As for the country exporting being the one that controls export that is a lie. Europe clossed its borders to Madagascar and refuses to allow anything other than cb so if cites had issues here in the us they would not allow them to arrive. The reason they are allowed is because these animals are being collected on regions that are set for deforestation and they are allowing alloted permits for those particular areas. Not everything is a negative as you make it seem richard. I for one do not want these amazing animals to ever be extinct however the countries from which they come are expanding and with expansion comes loss of habitat. I would rather see them here then never see them at all.

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It's pretty clear from this post that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You might want to perpetuate some fantasies about all wild-collected CITES II frogs coming-in from "rescues", but that is a fully-loaded diaper (IMO).

I recommend doing a bit of actual homework on the subject and not try to spin all the stories that the importers tell each other to justify the destructive practices they (you) are participating in.

Make money if you want to, but please try to stay with actual facts.

Richard.

I have also not lost any personally but all mine were treated. I however do listen to feedback and I have only had two reported deaths. These tincs are pretty sturdy compared to last years imports in which I had around 5-6 die. As for the country exporting being the one that controls export that is a lie. Europe clossed its borders to Madagascar and refuses to allow anything other than cb so if cites had issues here in the us they would not allow them to arrive. The reason they are allowed is because these animals are being collected on regions that are set for deforestation and they are allowing alloted permits for those particular areas. Not everything is a negative as you make it seem richard. I for one do not want these amazing animals to ever be extinct however the countries from which they come are expanding and with expansion comes loss of habitat. I would rather see them here then never see them at all.

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Honestly, I'm sure many, many people that are interested in pumilio are well aware of the risks-- since they are so readily available wild caught.

I understand you're warning beginners, but considering that CB tinctorius can often be as cheap as $25 versus large wild caught adults, I'm sure a beginner that has done his / her reading will probably choose the route with least resistance ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
It seems odd to me that you would want to have the "TWI/ASN" next to your name (as if you support frog conservation), but that doesn't seem to be what you are on about today. It's too bad to see that. I will leave it that I have etablished my opinion and leave the apparent pack of dogs to their little feeding frenzy.

Good luck with that, Richard.

Where are your facts? I see a lot of emotion-driven half truths, but your argument is pretty light on actual facts.
 

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It seems odd to me that you would want to have the "TWI/ASN" next to your name (as if you support frog conservation), but that doesn't seem to be what you are on about today. It's too bad to see that. I will leave it that I have etablished my opinion and leave the apparent pack of dogs to their little feeding frenzy.

Good luck with that, Richard.
Again, let's see some facts to support the argument. Show me some evidence that importing a few dozen tincs does any damage to wild populations.
 

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I recommend doing a bit of actual homework on the subject and not try to spin all the stories that the importers tell each other to justify the destructive practices they (you) are participating in.
While I definitely think restrictions are looser than as stated-- trying to convince a 3rd world country like Madagascar with an overthrown governor to not collect wild caught frogs when people are trying to feed their starving families is like trying to tell people to boycott Wal-Mart in favor of "ethical business practices" when so many people are out of work right now.

I'm not saying we're powerless, and I'm not saying that you're not well meaning, but ranting doesn't do much honestly to stop the problem. As we've seen in the past on this forum, we had more people just rant about the ban on interstate transport of possible chytrid infected frogs than people that actually wrote letters to the USFWS.
 

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It seems odd to me that you would want to have the "TWI/ASN" next to your name (as if you support frog conservation), but that doesn't seem to be what you are on about today. It's too bad to see that. I will leave it that I have etablished my opinion and leave the apparent pack of dogs to their little feeding frenzy.

Good luck with that, Richard.
Richard, personal attacks don't help your case, just agree to disagree:)
 
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