[stu&shaz]

Once again Ed thankyou for posting. You have just prempted a post by us about this very subject.Do you have any information on anystudies or on how the use of uvb lighting might be of benefit to tadpols and helping with sucessful morphout,ie prevention of sls.?
We are just experimenting with one of the new arcadia T5 24watt D3 6% over our tad rearing set up. Arcadia seem to have done alot of reserch into this product,from my limited knowledge it seems to be the best option available for our dartfrogs,but i personnally would like a lower wattage option, in some tanks we only use 14watt. As above we also utilise T5 bio vital bulbs over our vivs.
We have taken the pragmatic view of using different types of glass (ie low iron) to give differing levels so the frogs can self regulate,in viv. With the tadpols we are giving a good piece of oakleaf for potential shade,again for self regulation.Deep thought is given, as best we beginners can, to our frogs in viv being able to use the uvb and behave normally in areas of the tank that are shaded from it aswell.
Our leanings towards this were 2 fold,1 mworks posts and 2 obseving our auratus "sunbathing" in a shaft of sunlight early mornings standing high legged,i would hasten to add we moitored temperatures very carefully during this very brief early morning period,with concearn about viv temperatures rising excessively,but all is well. When our room is eventually finished we will be running a 2 fold lighting system uvb bulbs in the center of the day and an led system on throughout the day...any thoughts?
Paramount in all this is the thought of self regulation by our charges
regards
Stu

 

[stu&shaz]

based on the huge amount of data out there I would not use UVB for tadpoles.. there is some good data out there that tadpoles may not avoid damaging levels of UVB

See for example Larval amphibians seek warm temperatures and do not avoid harmful UVB radiation

It also makes the tadpoles less tolerant of poor water conditions (see for example http://people.oregonstate.edu/~blaustea/pdfs/Macias_et_al_STOTEN_07.pdf

for a more generalized discussion see
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~salex/Can. J. Zool. 77.1956.1966 (1999).pdf


Ed

thanks Ed for the links i will come back when i have dijested them fully...shattered again thenkyou for your thoughts
regards
Stu

 

[stu&shaz]

Like Ed I believe that providing UVb for tads may not only be unnecessary but may be potentially damaging to tadpole development. When providing the histrionica with a UVb session I noticed a visible tad in one of the brom axils would 'go deep' when the bulb was switched on. Finding another tad in the BriBri viv I tried with the UVb directed on it's axil - similarly the tad 'went deep'.
This happened several times so my conclusions were that the tad knew what it needed and UVb wasn't on it's list.

Since that incident I have never thought of providing UVb for my tads. I also notice that many now provide constant UVb for their frogs. As I have mentioned previously I decided not to do this as after about 30 mins 'sunbathing' under a 10% Arcadia bulb every frog I have leaves the 'UVb lit' area and re emerge when the bulb is switched off.

I have also started to open the doors on some of the vivs with frogs I trust won't jump out. Of course I sit with the lamp ensuring no escapes and I have noticed that the frogs seem to have an awareness of UVb strength as they 'bathe' about 3 inches farther back than when the doors are closed and the UVb is going through the Optiwhite glass I use on all my viv doors. Coincidence - I don't know yet - I should have a better idea after a few more months experimenting.

Regards
Graham

Again Graham thankyou for your thoughts,as with Ed your wisdom is greatly valued,i thought that the low levels available to our frogs as overhead,might be a way of self regulation,its is only the back 15cm or so of our vivs top,that actually uses low iron/optiwhite glass,in all vivs i think this area of background is heavily planted,and lower levels in full shade so a frog would have to actively seek said light,the majority of the viv top is constructed ofnormal 4mm which i thought only let very low levels of uvb through, which i didn't think would be of any potential risk to our frogs,coupled with the uvb lighting only being on for the middle part of the day i believed,i had a system figured that would let them chose and not be reliant on me,chosing for them.
As regards the tadpols interesting observations,i might have to change things,i need to read through Ed's links,which you both know how i struggle with thses scientific data type posts so will need to be of a clearer head to assimalate something from them,that is if I can understand them at all,as before i don't think i see letters quite the same as other folks do. I based my initial thoughts for using this with them, on factors such as low strength bulbs,poor penitration of rays into water.But of course my simple laymans/stockmans logic,not that of the more scientic data that you guys are able to access ,but for me is next to impossible to read,i deeply struggle with the english,always have always will.I have also read that uvb could be beneficial in combatting fungal infections and help with water quality.
With our 14 watt bulb we have so far encountered no visable problems,but it is very early for us,in less than a week i guess 3 more tads will morph all look ok i think,but its just so early for me/us yet,first season and all, its utterly impossible to be sure of anything we are doing .
Thanks again buddy and to Ed
regards
Stu

 

[stu&shaz]

Actually if you dig around in the literature, there are a number of papers that indicate increased susceptiability to fungal infections for tadpoles exposed to UVB light. We should keep in mind that most of the dendrobatid tadpoles are not going to be found in locations that are going to have significant UVB exposure. (leaf axils (shaded by other leaves/tissues, small pools or puddles under the canopy are two off the top of my head) so they are probably going to be very sensitive to UVB.

The whole idea for UVB usage for tadpoles was due to a practice in a European Zoo that was published in the old British Dendrobatid Group News letter. It used to be available on the old BDG website, but since that went down, I haven't seen it around. It was done during the old days when there was a lot of voodoo guesswork on how to prevent spindly leg syndrome in tadpoles. It hasn't been supported by the literature as a good practice and we have a much better handle on spindly leg now due to some recent studies.


Ed

Absolutly see your logic here Ed,of course i need to walk where our dartfrogs live observe,think evaluate and then put that into practice,that would be the way for my brain to work out how much light/not only uvb our frogs need,but i doubt this will happen so every conversation like this becomes hugely important. I wasn't actually aware of the thoughts by the BDS. But our use of uvb has been very much driven by the wish to not see sls,your last sentance becomes all important now because i deeply feel there is something on sls that i have totally missed out on,i'm also warey of asking more here on your thread because it wll take you thread totally leftfield i fear and into a disscussion on sls.
Ed i have had ago at the first two papers,laymans thoughts
1 my conclusion is that the tadpols will congragte in areas of water that is the right temperature for them,if that means too much uv this is not as important to them as the temperature...even if it harms them
2nd paper when testing for problems with pollution ie nitrate uvb can have an exagerating effect to the consequences of said polution,so needs to be factored into experiments.uvb can act as a "catylist" making environmental problems for phibs greater
have i got the gist of these studies?
Finally with regard to your last post,are there any studies any tables of which darts receive higher light levels which darts live in the darkest places...is there any correlation between different morphs of a species and light level?
This would give us a fairly simple laymans guide to how bright our viv should be,and how much uvb a given dart might need, well maybe.
i'm gonna have a go at that third paper now,wish me luck
thankyou
Stu
Ps i'm probably drawing the wrong conclusion here but do auratus live in real dark places...dense cover overhead,maybe moreso than tinctorius?

 

[stu&shaz]

Have you read the link between spindly leg and vitamin A in the form of retinyl acetate/palmitate? In researching stuff up I located a paper that descibed deformations that occured when they blocked the metabolism of vitamin A and it matched the condition we call sls.. (and issues with fertility and tadpole development).

Ed

No not yet,i was reading a long thread on here last night on sls,got to page 6 computer halted progress,i have become very aware of vit a from your posts,and that amphibians have difficulty assimalating this from their diet?,am aware that you have reversed poor hatches,with bimonthly vit a and contacted Allen for some thoughts too. At presant hatches are steadily improving (young frogs) tad viability good,and early morphout good so far aswell.Haven't used vit a (although some is on its way just in case) as don't yet feel any need to do so. All good so far,a bit bewildered by how well actually.
A link would be awsome,sorry for going off topic,but other guys like us i guess will be having similar thoughts and will learn too
thanks again
regards
Stu

 

[stu&shaz]

Ha mate i SO agree with every word of that !! And have pretty much tried to share all that i learn as i go and the thought behind it,sometime uninformed decissions lead to break thoughs...sometime disaster,but we have to try as best we are able. But mate its so cool being able to have access to folks like yourself and Ed whom try to help us so much,yeah sometimes its hard going for me to understand but as you say i'm not after quick fixes stock is about thought obsevation and diligence,making choices and reacting fast when observation tells us too.
Yeah it his hard sometimes to tell folks when we get it wrong but it is so important that others learn from this aswell!! Thanks Graham
regards
Stu

 

[stu&shaz]

i am gonna start experimenting with this in some of my frogs, can you guys recomend a good fixture and bulb?

Hi julio,Arcadia also make a T5 which might be of use as an alternative to Grahams cool design. We use this over the top of the viv. Note that we use the euroviv design,and only the back piece of glass is optiwhite(ie lets uvb through),so the frogs have to search out the uv light,ie behaviourally modify thanks Ed. We also have these lights on for only some of the day.I might be wrong but i'm pretty sure the uvb on these bulbs does not deteriorate for a yr.Todd,venutus will be able to confirm or otherwise this for you as he now has these lights,available for you guys stateside.
regards
Stu