[addam4208283]

I am sure this has been asked before but I couldn't find anything with in the search I did. How important is it for PDF to have UV light? A coworker of mine is setting up a tank for some azureus froglets that I gave her and she asked me about it. I couldn't answer her honestly so I said that I would post the ? on here to see what you guys think.

She related it to lizards and how it works hand in hand with vitamin D. She went on by saying with lizards if you don't have UV light then the vit. D in the vit. you give your pet is worthless because it can’t be absorbed into the body without the UV light. She mentioned that this is probably a key factor with SLS.

My ? is if UV light cant pass through glass then how is it to get to the frog inside the vive?
Thanks in advance.
ADAM

 

[steelcube]

My personal opinion on that is that the UV lamp (or any strong light) created an environment that makes phytoplanktons, micro and macroalgae to flourish.

This blooming micro vegetation could be the source for folate/folic acid that the tadpoles need.

SB

 

[Dancing frogs]

Most people dont worry about providing UV to darts...their justification is that in the wild they live on the forest floor...a very dim place.

I would like to eventually have all of my vivs getting some UV in...I think it would have some benefits, however subtle they may (or may not) be.

Regular glass blocks most UV, so the UV from a reptile bulb, which is usually pretty weak to begin with, gets soaked up.
There are special Acrylics out there that will pass most of the usable UV...as well as visible light, these are commonly used in tanning beds.
I think starphire glass transmits more UV than regular glass as well, and is super clear (not green like normal glass) and you guessed it...more expensive.
The easiest way to allow UV in would be to use a screen under you're lights (instead of glass)
The problem with this method is maintaining the humidity, which is much more important (to frogs) than UV.
Good Luck!

 

[bbrock]

My opinion is that UV can be important but not exactly essential. I've witnessed some pretty strong evidence that UVA can be a powerful psychological agent (in this case an appetite stimulant) and my experience also suggests UVB can serve as a backup to safeguard against Ca defficiency. The only really sure methods I know to get UV into a vivarium are 1) have no barrier between the UV bulb and the animals, 2) use screen which will block about half the UV depending on mesh size, or 3) use a UV transmitting material such as Solacryl.

I also like Steven's theory about UV possibly promoting the growth of folic acid bearing plankton.

 

[steelcube]

I guess it's either that or vitamin E or both.

 

[HansV]

In all the Vivaria vivariums is placed a UV-A light for the frogs. I have copied some from the Vivaria site

In their natural habitat frogs and lizards, spend time in the sun. Research has shown that the ultra violet spectrum of sunlight is of utmost importance for animals to produce their own vitamins. (vit A-D)

Among other things, these vitamins contribute to a good calcium balance. Calcium is important for bone structure and the functioning of nerves. Too little calcium causes calcium deficiency symptoms like leg failure (rachitis) or even epileptic seizures after sudden panic reactions.
The good news is that we have found a lamp that specifically emits ultra violet light in low and steady amounts, preventing over-exposure to harmful doses of ultra violet light.


UV passing Acryl-panel

In most vivariums a glass plate separates the lamps and the vivarium itself. Ultra violet light cannot pass through glass, so it is necessary to replace the glass plate with a material that allows ultra violet light to pass. We have found a transparent material, which is up to this task. Our UV-plates let pass 99% of the ultra violet light and is heat-resistant for the heat generated by the lamps.

OUR RESULTS WITH ULTRA VIOLET LIGHT THIS FAR:

Young Epidobates tricolor separated in two groups of ten specimens. Group 1 receives ultra violet light; group 2 does not receive ultra violet light. After three months group 1 is noticeably redder than group 2.

A group of Phyllobates vittatus suffers from epileptic seizures, even after capturing them in a jar. After two months under ultra violet light, the frogs are less stressful. Most of them do not suffer from seizures anymore after we shake them in a jar.

A seven year old, green Dendrobates pumilio is almost coloured brown due to old age, hardly active and often fails to catch fruit flies. After placing under ultra violet light for two weeks, he becomes more active. After each peeling, his colour slowly turns from brown to green. Three peelings later, he is green again

 

[Guest]

Very interesting post Hans.
I recieved a green pumilio female(Sherpards isle) from a freind that has that same darker coloration.More then the others I have.I will have to do some research and if her color is an indicator of age I 'd like to know how old she is.
She has lost alot of her grayish coloration on her back becoming more of a bronze color but I'm not sure if it is due to her diet or to lighting.I have a 96watt Compact flourescent lighti over the greens pums vivs but it is on top of glass so I don't think the UV-A is passing thur it.
I have talked to Brent about this also and it may be time for a change around in my viv construction soon.
Mark

 

[addam4208283]

Thanks for the reply's guys. Now if you drilled a couple holes in the top lids for my tank then covered them with screen would that be ok or no?
ADAM

 

[Dancing frogs]

For allowing UV? I don't think enough would pass to make it worth the effort. If you drill a enough small holes in you're glass top, that would take a long time, and significantly weaken the glass panel. Adding screen on top of that, you're adding more stuff to obstruct the light. You're best bet would probably be to either build a small screen strip out of the DIY window screen kits to put under you're lights. Then to fine tune you're humidity/heat use the portion of glass you cut out of you're top to cover some of the screen. This could be done with readily available materials.

I would love to try some of the UV passing acrylic. This is probably the best way to go...Alowing UV to pass...yet keeping humidity in.
HansV, is there any warping issues with the stuff Vivaria is using? How do they install it?

To anyone interested...If I were to order a big sheet of this stuff, would anyone want to buy some of my extra?

 

[bbrock]

I guess it's either that or vitamin E or both.

I'm a little slow today. Can you explain this?

 

[Dunner97074]

Question: I know the UV rays won't penetrate through the glass but I remember a smal hanging striplight that had water resistant caps on the ends you could hand inside the viv. The bulbs are narrow so they don't take up too much space. Since it is fluor. it won't generate much heat so you'd get the UV you'd need without having to compromise the lid. Anyone ever hear of these lights?
Mike

 

[Guest]

For those who have first hand experience, how must light, and more specifically UV light, leaks through the dense canopy of these frog's home?

It would be pretty easy to have a portion of either a glass or acrylic tank, which had an opening that could be covered for some time and accept a UV light source for the other time. If someone developed a modular UV light system that could be moved from tank to tank each day, it would be a relatively inexpensive solution.

~Joe

 

[steelcube]

I guess it's either that or vitamin E or both.

I'm a little slow today. Can you explain this?

This is a bit off the thread but I'll try...

BTW, I like what HansV said about UV helps in synthesizing vit A and D and calcium intake which perhaps helps in tadpoles development.

I guess what I was trying to say is that these micro and/or macro vegetations that grow under strong lights might provide folate and/or vit E that tadpoles need in their development.

I guess if one believes that folate (and maybe vit E) intake will prevent spindly legs, the rest of the SLS theories out there can be explain thru a lil bit of "educated guesses"...

and this is one of those (hopefully) "educated guesses" that I have...


BTW, here is a good reading about folate from a reference:

"Folate is a water-soluble B vitamin that occurs naturally in food. Folic acid is the synthetic form of folate that is found in supplements and added to fortified foods.

Folate gets its name from the Latin word "folium" for leaf. A key observation of researcher Lucy Wills nearly 70 years ago led to the identification of folate as the nutrient needed to prevent the anemia of pregnancy. Dr. Wills demonstrated that the anemia could be corrected by a yeast extract. Folate was identified as the corrective substance in yeast extract in the late 1930s, and was extracted from spinach leaves in 1941.

Folate helps produce and maintain new cells. This is especially important during periods of rapid cell division and growth such as infancy and pregnancy. Folate is needed to make DNA and RNA, the building blocks of cells. It also helps prevent changes to DNA that may lead to cancer. Both adults and children need folate to make normal red blood cells and prevent anemia. Folate is also essential for the metabolism of homocysteine, and helps maintain normal levels of this amino acid."

 

[bbrock]

For those who have first hand experience, how must light, and more specifically UV light, leaks through the dense canopy of these frog's home?

It would be pretty easy to have a portion of either a glass or acrylic tank, which had an opening that could be covered for some time and accept a UV light source for the other time. If someone developed a modular UV light system that could be moved from tank to tank each day, it would be a relatively inexpensive solution.

~Joe

Well first we can't assume that the frogs live under a dense canopy because many live up in the canopy and others live in second growth and clearings.

But I've snipped some stuff that I wrote for another purpose that might partially answer the question:
The intensity of light under a forest canopy is 0.5-5% the irradiance that strikes the top of the canopy. Sunflecks can typically occupy from 5-25% (Chazdon, 1984) of the forest floor but can contribute 70-80% of the solar irradiance received by the understory (Evans, 1956). The intensity of these sunflecks can range from a photosynthetic photon flux density (PPFD) of 150 umol/ m2 /second to over 500 umol/m2/s PPFD....Canopy structure also influences the spectral distribution of light reaching the understory. The wavelength of diffused light in the shade is strongly attenuated below 700 nm so the light is strongest in red and far red spectrum. However light in sunflecks has a nearly identical spectral distribution as full sun with only a slight attentuation of the ultraviolet wavelengths.

I'm guessing with a little googling we could find the UV output of full sun and also the output of UV producing bulbs and use the above information to make some comparisons between the bulbs and nature.

I actually don't think providing UVB to vivaria is much more expensive than a regular setup though. The new UVB producing CF bulbs on cost a couple bucks more than a standard 5000K CF bulb. The only other expense is the acrylic which is not cheap but only costs about $10 or so to cover an average viv. So if you are already using CF lights, you can just switch bulbs and make a littel modification to your canopies to make sure the UV gets through and you are done. But to be honest there is one additional expense. I've found that the UVB producing CF will bake off of their bases after 6 months to a year. That's not really a design flaw considering UV bulbs need to be changed about every 6 months to make sure you are providing UV but the non UV bulbs last much longer. You just don't have the luxury of using an old UVB bulb for just visible light output.

 

[bbrock]

I guess what I was trying to say is that these micro and/or macro vegetations that grow under strong lights might provide folate and/or vit E that tadpoles need in their development.

Ah, yes, that makes sense. For some reason I was trying to connect UV with vit. E uptake.

But now a new question. Only the longest wavelengths of UVA can be used in photosynthesis so the energy from most UV is not used for plant growth. But UV can influence meristem elongation and plant pigmentation. It's my understanding that symbiotic algae in corals require UV light to thrive but I don't know how this works. Now I'm wondering how UV would influence vegetation growth to provide the magic vitamins. One possiblilty might be those pigments. That the UV stimulates production of folic acid or vit E bearing pigments but I'm just guessing of course.

 

[Dancing frogs]

For those who have first hand experience, how must light, and more specifically UV light, leaks through the dense canopy of these frog's home?

It would be pretty easy to have a portion of either a glass or acrylic tank, which had an opening that could be covered for some time and accept a UV light source for the other time. If someone developed a modular UV light system that could be moved from tank to tank each day, it would be a relatively inexpensive solution.

~Joe

For that type of application, these bulbs sound like they would fit the bill.

 

[Ed]

Snip BTW, I like what HansV said about UV helps in synthesizing vit A and D and calcium intake which perhaps helps in tadpoles development. "


A quick correction here,
As far as I can determine, UVB does not have any direct impact on vitamin A synthesis but affects synthesis of vitamin D3 (important as regular vitamin D and vitamin D2 are of no use to frogs). However given that vitamin A and D3 compete for uptake in the digestive tract (anything above 10 to 1 A to D3 is usually a problem), giving the frogs the ability to synthesize their own D3 is a good backup to prevent disruption of the calcium metabolism.


Ed