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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I made the mistake of not hanging my Arcadia ShadeDweller 7% UVB light fixture 10" away from the top of the enclosure so when my White's tree frog decided to hang out up there his skin darkened and has not turned back. I think he got a UV burn. I'm going to call the vet tomorrow but is there anything I can do to help right now? I hung the light 10" away from the top of the enclosure and removed the reflector to ensure he doesn't get over exposed to it again. I'm not sure when I'll be able to see the vet because I live an hour away and work Mon-Fri. I've heard of people using original neosporin without pain reliever in it but I want to be sure anything I do is absolutely safe.
He does not have any blistering it's just kind of brown on top of his head and fades to his normal green going down his back. It appeared the day he was sitting under the light so that's why I'm sure it's a burn and not bacterial infection (though I'm worried the burn could cause him to susceptible to one).
 

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I'd personally be reluctant to put an ointment on an amphibian without a clear reason. If the skin isn't broken, there isn't an obvious risk of infection. I'd wait to ask the vet tomorrow.

You mentioned you've raised the light, which is good, but UVB usage for herps needs to be monitored with a UVB meter, especially in these UVB-optional species that are well known to be kept very healthy in captivity without UVB. If a meter is cost-prohibitive, then simply meeting the Vit D needs of the frog through supplementation (which of course needs to be done anyway) is the best and safest practice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'd personally be reluctant to put an ointment on an amphibian without a clear reason. If the skin isn't broken, there isn't an obvious risk of infection. I'd wait to ask the vet tomorrow.

You mentioned you've raised the light, which is good, but UVB usage for herps needs to be monitored with a UVB meter, especially in these UVB-optional species that are well known to be kept very healthy in captivity without UVB. If a meter is cost-prohibitive, then simply meeting the Vit D needs of the frog through supplementation (which of course needs to be done anyway) is the best and safest practice.
Yeah that's fair, hopefully I can speak with the vet directly. He specializes in amphibians.
I heard they don't need UVB but then I have also heard that it's better for their health to have it. I'm thinking about getting a UV meter but I also know that Arcadia measures the UVB with that exact same meter and I did a lot of research on how much UVB they need (it seems they do require a small amount to better synthesize D3 based on a scientific report I read; Ferguson zone 1 I think which is 0-0.7 UVI). This specific light meets those requirements around 10 inches according to their readings. I will also ask the vet about the UVB to be 100% sure on this.
 

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Based on limited need, if you continue with UVB, I would suggest having it on for a very short period of time during midday. That would make it so the frog can access it if needed, but not be exposed to it all day. Feeding with a D3 enriched calcium supplement, such as Repashy Calcium Plus, is probably your best bet (and should be done every feeding regardless of UVB).

A heavily planted tank will also allow for the frogs to retreat behind leaves etc. if the UVB is not wanted/needed.
 

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Mantella baroni, Dendrobates auratus, Afrixalus dorsalis, Theloderma corticale
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Although I agree that vitamin D levels should be primarily maintained by adequate supplementation, there is some evidence that treefrogs and other frog species that occasionally bask in the sun do benefit from the presence of UV-B. See for example:

Ultraviolet B radiation (UV-B) and the growth and skeletal development of the Amazonian milk frog (Trachycephalus resinifictrix) from metamorphosis. By Verschooren et. al. (2011)

Meeting Ultraviolet B Radiation Requirements of Amphibians in Captivity: A Case Study With Mountain Chicken Frogs (Leptodactylus fallax) and General Recommendations for Pre‐Release Health Screening. By Tapley et. al. (2014)

Ultraviolet radiation and Vitamin D-3 in amphibian health, behaviour, diet and conservation. By Antwis & Browne (2009)

This last one in particular is interesting because it shows the difference between what could be considered a frog with very low UV demands (tomato frog) and two species with higher UV demands (milk frog and green bell frog) fed the same diet and same supplementation.

All in all these articles both show that bone growth, overall growth and bone density are improved by UV-B supplementation for some species that can be expected to have higher UV demands in nature as they bask in more exposed areas.
 

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Yes, there's a growing body of evidence that even nocturnal species can metabolize D3 from UVB, as might be expected given evolutionary conservation of characteristics. There's no argument on that point, but rather on what hobbyists do with that data.

Whether recommending the use of a simple, no additional labor, no additional cost (for D3 containing vs not) supplement alone to maintain healthy animals or to use expensive (fixture/lamp + meter is at least $200 USD) hardware that requires more than novice level expertise in both viv design and in frog behavior to safely use is a distinct question from that of experimentally shown "benefit". Spending that extra $200 on a bigger viv with more and better hardscape and plantscape is almost certainly going to be of more overall benefit to captive frogs than prioritizing the purchase of UVB equipment; these cost calculations seem to figure into most first-time builds.

At least some of these studies in amphibians depend on experimental conditions in which "Overlapping heat, light and UV-B gradients were provided, mimicking what we believe best represents the natural situation and thereby facilitated self-regulation of UV-B exposure." (Tapley 2014), which would be very hard to replicate in any size of ExoTerra, especially by a new keeper's first experience with a species. This difficulty underpins the problems in using this relatively complex method.

I think the UVB discussion (as with the push in other corners of herp care for the "benefits" of bioactive enclosures) needs to take into account the costs (monetary, animal health risks, diminishing returns in marginal benefits) of these methods.
 

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Yes, there's a growing body of evidence that even nocturnal species can metabolize D3 from UVB, as might be expected given evolutionary conservation of characteristics. There's no argument on that point, but rather on what hobbyists do with that data.

Whether recommending the use of a simple, no additional labor, no additional cost (for D3 containing vs not) supplement alone to maintain healthy animals or to use expensive (fixture/lamp + meter is at least $200 USD) hardware that requires more than novice level expertise in both viv design and in frog behavior to safely use is a distinct question from that of experimentally shown "benefit". Spending that extra $200 on a bigger viv with more and better hardscape and plantscape is almost certainly going to be of more overall benefit to captive frogs than prioritizing the purchase of UVB equipment; these cost calculations seem to figure into most first-time builds.

At least some of these studies in amphibians depend on experimental conditions in which "Overlapping heat, light and UV-B gradients were provided, mimicking what we believe best represents the natural situation and thereby facilitated self-regulation of UV-B exposure." (Error - Cookies Turned Off), which would be very hard to replicate in any size of ExoTerra, especially by a new keeper's first experience with a species. This difficulty underpins the problems in using this relatively complex method.

I think the UVB discussion (as with the push in other corners of herp care for the "benefits" of bioactive enclosures) needs to take into account the costs (monetary, animal health risks, diminishing returns in marginal benefits) of these methods.
I very much agree with your assessment. Particularly with regard to the first-time builds.

Just wanted to point out that the argument "captive frogs don't need UV" that is often repeated is not as black and white as it is often stated. Particularly for non dart frogs. And once beyond a certain point in the hobby with upgraded bigger tanks or perhaps bigger Oophaga species, the UV for vitamin D discussion can become relevant again.
 

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I very much agree with your assessment. Particularly with regard to the first-time builds.

Just wanted to point out that the argument "captive frogs don't need UV" that is often repeated is not as black and white as it is often stated. Particularly for non dart frogs. And once beyond a certain point in the hobby with upgraded bigger tanks or perhaps bigger Oophaga species, the UV for vitamin D discussion can become relevant again.
To be fair, looking through this thread, nobody made the argument that "captive frogs don't need UV(B)".
 
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