USPS lost my frogs

864 Views 26 Replies 10 Participants Last post by CleTribeTime, 9 d ago

CleTribeTime

Discussion Starter · 14 d ago

I sent out a package of 4 froglets from Cleveland to California. I used USPS Priority Express since it was less than half the cost of FedEx. Dropped them off on Tuesday at 5:20, guaranteed to be delivered by Wednesday at 6pm. The last tracking update is:

In Transit from Origin Processing
Arrived at USPS Regional Origin Facility
CLEVELAND OH DISTRIBUTION CENTER
May 23, 2023, 8:17 pm

I had hoped the tracking just did not update, but when the buyer confirmed they never received them I contacted USPS at 7pm. They assured me that since the package contains live animals it is a top priority and that someone from consumer affairs would contact me asap with an update. It has now been 53 hours since I dropped them off, and over 24 hours since I opened a case with USPS. No one has contacted me with any update. I have called them 3 times now and each time gotten the same response, to just be patient as they are investigating. They will not put me in contact with the facility or team who is actually "investigating", as they tell me they dont have a phone number for them. When I asked the woman this last time what happens when they don't find it in time and the frogs are dead, she said "well it's insured". I told her that's not the damn point. I am beyond frustrated with USPS right now.

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Socratic Monologue

· #2 · 14 d ago

That's unfortunate. It isn't very surprising, though.

Live animals should only be shipped with FedEx on a certified shipper's label, such as from Ship Your Reptiles. SYR has internal connections at FedEx and can solve problems like this.

I'm assuming you compared USPS retail rates vs FedEx published retail rates. Be aware that it is against FedEx's TOS to ship live animals without certification (which label providers have), so a retail price comparison isn't valid. SYR discounts 40% off FedEx's retail pricing.

I'm sorry this happened to you.

Reactions: 4

CleTribeTime

Discussion Starter · #3 · 14 d ago

Socratic Monologue said:
That's unfortunate. It isn't very surprising, though.

Live animals should only be shipped with FedEx on a certified shipper's label, such as from Ship Your Reptiles. SYR has internal connections at FedEx and can solve problems like this.

I'm assuming you compared USPS retail rates vs FedEx published retail rates. Be aware that it is against FedEx's TOS to ship live animals without certification (which label providers have), so a retail price comparison isn't valid. SYR discounts 40% off FedEx's retail pricing.

I'm sorry this happened to you.

I based the rates off of reptiles2you. Their quoted FedEx price was right around $100, USPS was only $40. Seeing as I only charged $100 for the frogs, it is very difficult to find a buyer willing to pay the same price in shipping as for the actual frogs themselves.

CleTribeTime

Discussion Starter · #4 · 14 d ago

SYR would have been about $120, and that is before the cost of the box, insulation, and phase pack

JasonE

· #5 · 14 d ago

What's done is done. There is a reason USPS isn't used and this is it. Live and learn.

Reactions: 3

Socratic Monologue

· #6 · 14 d ago

CleTribeTime said:
I based the rates off of reptiles2you. Their quoted FedEx price was right around $100, USPS was only $40. Seeing as I only charged $100 for the frogs, it is very difficult to find a buyer willing to pay the same price in shipping as for the actual frogs themselves.

I did not realize USPS was that cheap. I recently needed to send an overnight envelope (9 x 12) and it was almost $50 (I'm rural, but still). They may price out differently than FedEx --USPS may price at actual weight, while FedEx uses dimensional weight (so a couple inches of box dimensions makes a big difference). Getting efficient with box sizes can help quite a bit; four dart froglets should fit perfectly in a 7 x 7 x 6.

I've made peace with shipping rates by simply not selling anything less than about $200, and then I offer flat rate discounted shipping and take the hit on the difference. Anything that I can't make into a shippable-value package (by growing them to adulthood, or offering more animals in a group, or proving out pairs) I wholesale locally. Unfortunately with bread and butter darts, and other easy to breed species of herps, there is a race to the bottom on pricing so this isn't always possible -- at some point the market price is so far under the cost to produce them it is just throwing money away to breed them. (Recall the old joke "We lose $20 on each sale, but make it up in volume!")

So, figuring out how to make the frogs more valuable is one way to do things. Another is to expect that buyers who want something shipped should expect to pay for shipping. Whether the cost of the box and packs and deli cups and mileage to drop the package off should be paid by the buyer or the seller is another matter; materials (and PayPal fees) may simply be the cost of doing business.

Some of the label companies may use some sort of variable scale. I just ran a 7 x 7 x 6 on SYR from Cleveland to Gardenia, CA and the quick quote was $94 but on my account it bills as $81. I charge $65 for shipping, so on that sale I would eat $15 and another $20 for box and 2 phase packs.

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CleTribeTime

Discussion Starter · #7 · 14 d ago

Socratic Monologue said:
I did not realize USPS was that cheap. I recently needed to send an overnight envelope (9 x 12) and it was almost $50 (I'm rural, but still). They may price out differently than FedEx --USPS may price at actual weight, while FedEx uses dimensional weight (so a couple inches of box dimensions makes a big difference). Getting efficient with box sizes can help quite a bit; four dart froglets should fit perfectly in a 7 x 7 x 6.

I've made peace with shipping rates by simply not selling anything less than about $200, and then I offer flat rate discounted shipping and take the hit on the difference. Anything that I can't make into a shippable-value package (by growing them to adulthood, or offering more animals in a group, or proving out pairs) I wholesale locally. Unfortunately with bread and butter darts, and other easy to breed species of herps, there is a race to the bottom on pricing so this isn't always possible -- at some point the market price is so far under the cost to produce them it is just throwing money away to breed them. (Recall the old joke "We lose $20 on each sale, but make it up in volume!")

So, figuring out how to make the frogs more valuable is one way to do things. Another is to expect that buyers who want something shipped should expect to pay for shipping. Whether the cost of the box and packs and deli cups and mileage to drop the package off should be paid by the buyer or the seller is another matter; materials (and PayPal fees) may simply be the cost of doing business.

Some of the label companies may use some sort of variable scale. I just ran a 7 x 7 x 6 on SYR from Cleveland to Gardenia, CA and the quick quote was $94 but on my account it bills as $81. I charge $65 for shipping, so on that sale I would eat $15 and another $20 for box and 2 phase packs.

Gotcha. Yeah that USPS price was through their click and ship option, which saves quite a bit. Update, the package arrived at their center in San Francisco early this morning, so hopefully they will be delivered today. Still no call back from affairs though, and I'll definitely be submitting a claim for shipping reimbursement which I will then pass on to the customer. Fingers crossed the froglets are OK.

Reactions: 2

CleTribeTime

Discussion Starter · #8 · 14 d ago

Also, that price was for a 9x9x9 1.5lb package. I was very surprised when I saw their rates as well and since I'm only selling Patricia's, the $100+ in shipping is a very hard sell. I am not really even trying to breed them, I just didn't realize at the time how difficult it would be to move them. I have started culling the eggs now, but ive got about 30 or so froglets to go. I ordered the packing materials and phase packs from R2Y, probably could have gotten away with 7x7x7 in retrospect. I have to pad the inside A LOT when only sending 4, since I'm only using 2oz deli cups to limit the space the frogs have to be bounced around.

Reactions: 2

Socratic Monologue

· #9 · 14 d ago

I hope the frogs are OK. I bet they will be.

CleTribeTime said:
I am not really even trying to breed them, I just didn't realize at the time how difficult it would be to move them.

Just quoting this for emphasis, so more new keepers see it. I'm sorry you are learning this the hard way.

Reactions: 4

Bgriff

· #10 · 14 d ago

Unfortunately that’s why you do not ship with USPS. I’d recomend doing a lot more research before you plan to ship again. As for the frogs, they are probably gone. Only ship FedEx IMO

Reactions: 1

CleTribeTime

Discussion Starter · #11 · 14 d ago

Socratic Monologue said:
I hope the frogs are OK. I bet they will be.

Just quoting this for emphasis, so more new keepers see it. I'm sorry you are learning this the hard way.

Bgriff said:
Unfortunately that’s why you do not ship with USPS. I’d recomend doing a lot more research before you plan to ship again. As for the frogs, they are probably gone. Only ship FedEx IMO

I did extensive research and found plenty of people who ship with USPS with no issues, even on this forum. As for the frogs, they have been found and are currently in California en route to their destination. And again, with fedex's rates they really aren't a viable option when I'm shipping $25 frogs and they are charging over $100 to send them.

Reactions: 1

fishingguy12345

· #12 · 14 d ago

CleTribeTime said:
And again, with fedex's rates they really aren't a viable option when I'm shipping $25 frogs and they are charging over $100 to send them

I disagree. Shipping cost should not dictate whether it's a viable solution or not.

Live frogs with "expensive" shipping > dead frogs with "cheap" shipping.

Reactions: 5

Socratic Monologue

· #13 · 14 d ago

One big difference is that when FedEx Priority Express gets delayed, it is a one day (or less, if package is being held for pickup at FedEx, which it should be) delay, and tracking can actually tell what it going on. My last FedEx overnight outbound missed the connection at the hub in Memphis (plane out of Wisconsin apparently got delayed), but I knew what was going on the whole time and the one day delay wasn't an issue. USPS delays can be multiple days, and USPS tracking is much less reliable.

In fact, the largest online marketplace for herps plainly states: "USPS is NOT an acceptable method for shipping live animals" (caps in original) under their 'Safe Purchasing' (red flags listing) section. I agree with them on that.

There's certainly a percentage of the buying public who balks at paying what shipping actually costs (they often tend to be the same people who balk at paying a fair price for an animal, too). IMO those folks should buy locally, or even better not at all.

Not trying to argue, just pointing out industry/community/hobby (whatever we call what we do) standards and reasoning behind them.

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Philsuma

· #14 · 14 d ago

this is the continuing problem with 'Cheap frogs'. All those epip tricolors being bred as another example. They are devalued and looked on as semi disposable.

Reactions: 5

JasonE

· #15 · 14 d ago

I feel like everyone buying frogs is already expecting shipping to be $70 and up.
I agree with everything @Socratic Monologue said. I never shipped frogs that totalled less than $200. I offer a discount on shipping after I get the quote - depending on the cost I eat anywhere from $10-20. I used to have a box fee that was refundable, but no one returned the boxes and I didn't feel good charging people an extra $10.

If someone is looking to buy frogs and the shipping price turns them off, then they don't really have the funds to keep the frogs anyway.

Reactions: 5

fishingguy12345

· #16 · 14 d ago

JasonE said:
If someone is looking to buy frogs and the shipping price turns them off, then they don't really have the funds to keep the frogs anyway.

This is my view of it as well.

When I'm buying frogs I consider that I'll need to spend at least $100 on shipping and factor that into my budget plan

Reactions: 5

Socratic Monologue

· #17 · 14 d ago

There's definitely a psychological factor involved in pricing too -- namely, that we (most people, anyway, including me) think that the shipping cost should be minimal compared to the product price. That's why Amazon bakes in five bucks in shipping costs by charging seven dollars more than something is worth and we all think we're getting a great deal.

When I price animals I think pretty hard about what the total cost to me is going to be once the deal is done and try to price accordingly. Lots of factors play a role:

normal market price is some sort of baseline, though I do try to consider only relevantly similar sellers (so flippers don't count, nor do sellers who demand unsecured funds like F&F/Zelle/check/MO).
then I consider whether I'm going to have to ship or sell locally (that's one reason expos can have lower prices -- there's not all the shipping hassle that has to be figured into the price of the animal),
what size box is going to be necessary (so winter prices may be higher, since molded boxes are larger and more expensive to buy and to ship, and if I plan to use a heat pack that requires a 9 x 12 x 6 at least),
whether I can offer the animal as some sort of package/group/pair

If I were going to offer tincs for sale online, I'd grow them out to adults and offer pairs. That would make the selling price worthwhile, and it is a part of the market that is underserved right now. Making the animals some sort of 'value added products' has a lot to be said for it in terms of improving the hobby, too (as opposed to, say, selling tads).

Hopefully there are good ideas coming out in this thread that can help you on future sales, @CleTribeTime .

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Imatreewaterme

· #18 · 14 d ago

Socratic Monologue said:
There's definitely a psychological factor involved in pricing too -- namely, that we (most people, anyway, including me) think that the shipping cost should be minimal compared to the product price. That's why Amazon bakes in five bucks in shipping costs by charging seven dollars more than something is worth and we all think we're getting a great deal.

When I price animals I think pretty hard about what the total cost to me is going to be once the deal is done and try to price accordingly. Lots of factors play a role:

normal market price is some sort of baseline, though I do try to consider only relevantly similar sellers (so flippers don't count, nor do sellers who demand unsecured funds like F&F/Zelle/check/MO).

then I consider whether I'm going to have to ship or sell locally (that's one reason expos can have lower prices -- there's not all the shipping hassle that has to be figured into the price of the animal),

what size box is going to be necessary (so winter prices may be higher, since molded boxes are larger and more expensive to buy and to ship, and if I plan to use a heat pack that requires a 9 x 9 x 12 at least),

whether I can offer the animal as some sort of package/group/pair

If I were going to offer tincs for sale online, I'd grow them out to adults and offer pairs. That would make the selling price worthwhile, and it is a part of the market that is underserved right now. Making the animals some sort of 'value added products' has a lot to be said for it in terms of improving the hobby, too (as opposed to, say, selling tads).

Hopefully there are good ideas coming out in this thread that can help you on future sales, @CleTribeTime .

Yea, I have a bunch of Azureus froglets up for sale and not many buyers are biting at the moment. If they do not sell I am thinking of growing them up and having a bunch of bins available to separate them and pair them off then sell.

Ricky

Reactions: 1

Partsgardener

· #19 · 14 d ago

When you compare insured shipping risk to culling it is definitely about what you can live with either way. It is a very interesting moral dilemma. Euthanize animals(or prevent reproduction) or send them out with a chance to survive and a chance to die unethicality. I have no experience either way, but if I had 20 babies that were hard to get rid of it would be on my mind.

Reactions: 1

joneill809

· #20 · 13 d ago

CleTribeTime said:
I am not really even trying to breed them, I just didn't realize at the time how difficult it would be to move them. I have started culling the eggs now, but ive got about 30 or so froglets to go.

Check out your local / regional exotic pets shops. The one by me is happy to source locally bred animals and advertise them as such - they were a great outlet for me when I was keeping tincs that never stopped breeding but were not worth the trouble to advertise and ship. The shop by me also has local networks where they trade between shops if they have surpluses of some species. Don't expect "retail" rates, but you might be able to drop off 10-20 froglets for store credit. Even if you are just getting $10 to $15 an animal in credit, it removes the headache of online sales and shipping. This assumes they can handle dart frog care - worth a look though.

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