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Does anyone know where to get toluene in the US? Would lowes or HD have it?

Thanks,
Dustin
 

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Some locations yes, some no. Paint stores often carry it, though. What are you using it for?
 

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At least out here in the people's republic of california you can't get it any longer from paint stores or home depot thanks to Cal OSHA -though home depot does stock a product called "industrial maintenance coating thinner" that does thin out silcon resonably well.

Toluene was found at an industrial hardware store though.
 

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Be sure whatever chemical you are using does not leave a residual trace that will harm the frogs. Their skin is highly permeable and soaks in many toxins immediately on contact.

Please read the Material Safety Data Sheet on this chemical to determine if it is acceptable to use with dart frogs. I strongly recommend not using it:

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Toluene-9927301

Potential Acute Health Effects:

Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of
skin contact (permeator).

Potential Chronic Health Effects:
CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: A4 (Not classifiable for human or animal.) by ACGIH, 3 (Not classifiable for human.) by IARC.

MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.

DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not
available. The substance may be toxic to blood, kidneys, the nervous system, liver, brain, central nervous system (CNS). Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage....

Special Remarks on Chronic Effects on Humans:
Detected in maternal milk in human. Passes through the placental barrier in human. Embryotoxic and/or foetotoxic in animal.
May cause adverse reproductive effects and birth defects (teratogenic). May affect genetic material (mutagenic)

Special Remarks on other Toxic Effects on Humans:
p. 5

Acute Potential Health Effects: Skin: Causes mild to moderate skin irritation. It can be absorbed to some extent through
the skin.

Eyes: Causes mild to moderate eye irritation with a burning sensation. Splash contact with eyes also causes conjunctivitis, blepharospasm, corneal edema, corneal abraisons. This usually resolves in 2 days.

Inhalation: Inhalation of vapor may cause respiratory tract irritation causing coughing and wheezing, and nasal discharge.
Inhalation of high concentrations may affect behavior and cause central nervous system effects characterized by nausea, headache, dizziness, tremors, restlessness, lightheadedness, exhilaration, memory loss, insomnia, impaired reaction time, drowsiness, ataxia, hallucinations, somnolence, muscle contraction or spasticity, unconsciousness and coma.

Inhalation of high concentration of vapor may also affect the cardiovascular system (rapid heart beat, heart palpitations, increased or decreased blood pressure, dysrhythmia, ), respiration (acute pulmonary edema, respiratory depression, apnea, asphyxia), cause vision disturbances and dilated pupils, and cause loss of appetite.
Ingestion: Aspiration hazard. Aspiration of Toluene into the lungs may cause chemical pneumonitis. May cause irritation of the digestive tract with nausea, vomiting, pain. May have effects similar to that of acute inhalation.

Chronic Potential Health Effects:
Inhalation and Ingestion: Prolonged or repeated exposure via inhalation may cause central nervous system and cardiovascular symptoms similar to that of acute inhalation and ingestion as well liver damage/failure, kidney damage/failure (with hematuria, proteinuria, oliguria, renal tubular acidosis), brain damage, weight loss, blood (pigmented or nucleated red blood cells, changes in white blood cell count), bone marrow changes, electrolyte imbalances (Hypokalemia, Hypophostatemia), severe, muscle weakness and Rhabdomyolysis.

Skin: Repeated or prolonged skin contact may cause defatting dermatitis.
 

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Earthfrog, the msds sheets provide the hazards of the uncured toluene. It will evaporate fully when exposed to air, so it would not cause any problems. The only question that remains is, does the toluene actually fully dissipate when mixed with silicone? Im trying to find that out at the moment.
Someone posted a helpful natural alternative in my build thread though, "Klean-Strip Green Turpentine". I'll be looking to use this as it would make application a lot more enjoyable. It still doesnt completely rule out toluene though, as we dont know what happens to it when mixed with silicone.
 

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Earthfrog, the msds sheets provide the hazards of the uncured toluene. It will evaporate fully when exposed to air, so it would not cause any problems. The only question that remains is, does the toluene actually fully dissipate when mixed with silicone? Im trying to find that out at the moment.
Someone posted a helpful natural alternative in my build thread though, "Klean-Strip Green Turpentine". I'll be looking to use this as it would make application a lot more enjoyable. It still doesnt completely rule out toluene though, as we dont know what happens to it when mixed with silicone.
Also needed to know is the mix-ratio to be sure none remains in the product and possibly leach from it, any possible chemical by-products or other side effects. I know it was removed from nail polish because of the health hazards.

I was primarily concerned for the sake of the one using it. At the very least, it needs a high-end ventilation mask and heavy duty gloves when using it, for the human's sake. Also, it would be good to be sure that none of the volatile combinations listed on the MSDS occur when it is mixed, and that none of the ones in the silicone are listed as a warning on the MSDS when combined with the toluene.
 

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You definitely don't want to be breathing evaporating toluene, but as a solvent its not changing the structure of itself OR the silicone
 

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You definitely don't want to be breathing evaporating toluene, but as a solvent its not changing the structure of itself OR the silicone
I was referring to any products left over from the combination of the two chemicals other than evaporation, if that is known.
So, is there is no possibility of any other chemical by-products as a result of the combination of the toluene and silicone, besides the other things within the silicone?
 

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I don't have a chem draw program, but tolene is just a benzene ring with a methyl group off the end. CH3- (methoxide ion) is a super strong base, but I couldnt find a mechanism for silicone solvation where the benzene ring is stripped away. That requires a different reaction, and is definitely possible, because toluene can definitely be stripped of its methyl group to form benzene. Also, adding a benzene ring to the silicone molecule via a substitution reaction would drastically change its properties, making it worthless. Besides, silicones are inert, making a reaction highly unlikely in the first place. Any additives in the silicone are also unlikely to react with the methyl group. However, a perusal of the GE site doesnt easily yield what additives are in what silicone, so I can't really say.

*The curing of the silicone yields acetic acid (vinegar smell) but this is too weak an acid to interact well with toluene*
 

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I don't have a chem draw program, but tolene is just a benzene ring with a methyl group off the end. CH3- (methoxide ion) is a super strong base, but I couldnt find a mechanism for silicone solvation where the benzene ring is stripped away. That requires a different reaction, and is definitely possible, because toluene can definitely be stripped of its methyl group to form benzene. Also, adding a benzene ring to the silicone molecule via a substitution reaction would drastically change its properties, making it worthless. Besides, silicones are inert, making a reaction highly unlikely in the first place. Any additives in the silicone are also unlikely to react with the methyl group. However, a perusal of the GE site doesnt easily yield what additives are in what silicone, so I can't really say.

*The curing of the silicone yields acetic acid (vinegar smell) but this is too weak an acid to interact well with toluene*
Also relevant I think would be the particular chemicals within the silicone product, notwithstanding the silicone.
It would seem that we could consider the rxn of toluene with the following chemicals typically present in the silicone as well. Most assume that the 100 percent silicone means that is all that is in the product; however, this is not the case. Here are some of the additives I found for a similar product, the Dow Corning Aquarium Sealant:

Household Products Database - Health and Safety Information on Household Products

Ingredients from MSDS/Label

Acetic acid -----7 percent
Methyltriacetoxysilane ------ 2 percent
Silica, amorphous (Diatomaceous silica) ---- 8 percent
Ethyltriacetoxysilane -----2 percent
Do these pose any further issue regarding a rxn with toluene?

This should be part of that consideration, it's from the MSDS I posted above:

Special Remarks on Explosion Hazards:

Toluene forms explosive reaction with 1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethyl-2,4-imidazolididione; dinitrogen tetraoxide; concentrated nitric
acid, sulfuric acid + nitric acid; N2O4; AgClO4; BrF3; Uranium hexafluoride; sulfur dichloride. Also forms an explosive mixture
with tetranitromethane.
(This is what I have been trying to get around to talking about.)
 

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If toluene is a solvent for a few things, including silicone, wouldn't we already be aware if it causes any kind of "explosive" problematic, weither negligeable or threatning?

I am very happy we have those wonderful tools that internet and forums are... how could we end up with a proper answer to all of this issue? It is greatly helping the hobby in many various ways!

Thanks to our chem herpers on this one ;)
 

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the acetic acid is formed by the acetates on contact with air. Acetic acid is extremely weak as far as acids are concerned, and way better than the industrial use silicone that yields hydrochloric acid gas as a curing byproduct.

You would need something much MUCH stronger to be reactive

methyl and ethylacetoxy silane have acetate groups, facilitating the formation of more acetic acid during curing, and these silane groups are responsible for the cross linking that gives each type of silicone its specific properties.I don't see any possible reaction mechanisms there.

Silicone IS siloxanes!! The acetate groups *are * to encourage cross linking (just looked this up)

diatomaceous silica doesn't pose any reaction risks either. I use diatomaceous earth all the time. Just glass basically, which is very non reactive
 

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Correct... none of the ingredients in the silicone is going to react with toluene. Toluene is pretty stable by itself so it needs some fairly strong chemicals to cause a reaction much less an explosive reaction (and often some significant conditions like refluxing..).

I can't think of an over the counter mask that you could purchase at one of the big box stores that would give adequate protection against toluene fumes.... so any work should be done in a well ventilated enviroment.

Ed
 

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the acetic acid is formed by the acetates on contact with air. Acetic acid is extremely weak as far as acids are concerned, and way better than the industrial use silicone that yields hydrochloric acid gas as a curing byproduct.

You would need something much MUCH stronger to be reactive

methyl and ethylacetoxy silane have acetate groups, facilitating the formation of more acetic acid during curing, and these silane groups are responsible for the cross linking that gives each type of silicone its specific properties.I don't see any possible reaction mechanisms there.

Silicone IS siloxanes!! The acetate groups *are * to encourage cross linking (just looked this up)

diatomaceous silica doesn't pose any reaction risks either. I use diatomaceous earth all the time. Just glass basically, which is very non reactive
Correct... none of the ingredients in the silicone is going to react with toluene. Toluene is pretty stable by itself so it needs some fairly strong chemicals to cause a reaction much less an explosive reaction (and often some significant conditions like refluxing..).

I can't think of an over the counter mask that you could purchase at one of the big box stores that would give adequate protection against toluene fumes.... so any work should be done in a well ventilated enviroment.

Ed
Thanks guys for indulging me in the conversation. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with the rest of us to benefit the hobby. I am also glad to be a sounding-board for such information.

That being said, I'd be very concerned about the health effects of using toluene without a mask. Perhaps holding one's breath for short stints would be good ---in addition to ventilation--- as that is nasty stuff.
 

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I would think canisters gas mask would be able to filter those fumes but maybe not!
Anyways, it can't be that bad if they're selling it! I will open my garage door, and plug that fan to blow air out!

a big thanks to you guys! I am away from home for easter holidays but am eager to try this out!!
 

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I would think canisters gas mask would be able to filter those fumes but maybe not!
Anyways, it can't be that bad if they're selling it! I will open my garage door, and plug that fan to blow air out!

a big thanks to you guys! I am away from home for easter holidays but am eager to try this out!!
They sell anything that they can, and many things are extremely harmful when inhaled/contacted on skin. You have to be careful yourself and not 'trust' the companies doing it for profit. Toluene is very toxic---read the MSDS sheet excerpts and do not inhale it or get it on your skin--there are indeed long-term consequences from it to include poss. cancer and breathing difficulty.
I have a relative dealing with inhalation pneumonia right now just from scraping debris off his ceiling without a mask on. You don't want any of that as a bonus for setting up your frog tank, believe-you-me.

(says Mom, take with a grain of salt and the other advice folks give you :))
 

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And think about the fact that organnic solvents are commonly abused for their intoxicating properties.

My o-chem professor has a great story about a kid who DRANK DMSO(A sulfur containing solvent that stores in your fat) Once he started to lose weight, he reaked like rotten eggs all the time
 

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And think about the fact that organnic solvents are commonly abused for their intoxicating properties.

My o-chem professor has a great story about a kid who DRANK DMSO(A sulfur containing solvent that stores in your fat) Once he started to lose weight, he reaked like rotten eggs all the time
Is that what the MSDS sheet calls 'defatting dermatitis'?
Was he slowly dissolving? NAS-TEE
Got any more details (it's pertinent since toluene has similar attibutes ;) )
 

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No defatting dermatitus is the result of working without proper protections with materials that can dissolve/remove the oils from your skin (example detergents can also do this if you are exposed to them for too long).

Ed
 
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