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We've all seen the pictures (Justin Yeager's I believe) of the multiple color variations living in direct proximity of each other, and with several additions to my Basti group coming in the next few weeks, I'm curious what kind of opinions anyone is willing to share on mixing these different colors in a breeding arrangement. I won't be doing anything drastic like mixing a gold dust with a green, but I was thinking along the lines of perhaps a yellow with a red or orange etc. One of mine is CB, but most are FR from the importations, if that has any bearing.
 

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Since you won't be doing anything "drastic" does that mean you are going to do something along these lines then? What are your thoughts on putting two similar morph tincs together? If you disagree with that, why wouldn't you disagree with this? So, could you tell us your opinion also on your idea?

Mine: I don't know if I would really want to purchase a pumilio that is not the same color. I know in the wild hybrids may occur, but in captivity that can be controlled, so I would want to control it. For the costs of these frogs, I would put my money to a "pure bred."

Just my thought, let's hear yours; others too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
As far as my opinion, the jury is still out. I just wanted to come here, where I hoped I could get informed opinions without getting flamed. I am as against morph mixing as anyone, I guess my real question is, are they considered different morphs entirely? And where does one draw the line in what is, and is not an acceptable mix? Is the slightest variation in pigment to be avoided? Not being able to personally pick out my frogs when the boat docks, as some are, I have to piece together my groups from different sources, and likely different importations.

Edit: I wanted to add this as part of the reasoning behind my original question. I hope it's not aginst forum policy to post it.
http://www.saurian.net/images2/bastipaircourting.jpg
 

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I have seen a couple shipments of that have come in, just over a hundred frogs total. There is a wide range of spot and coloration morphs. I think it really comes down to the genetics of the frogs. I have heard a few different versions of how the genetics work but not many that agree.

I would like to see a few opinions from people that have had more experience then I do.
 

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I wasn't referring to you in particular Greg, but I could see how someone might take your post one step further and start bashing me for wanting to mix morphs. I'd like for my reputation not to be tarnished for just asking a question like this.
 

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Understandable, and I fully agree. It is all about reputation when it comes to trading and/or selling these frogs. My post was not indicating that you would breed morphs of tincs, I was almost positive you wouldn't agree with that. Basically, I figured let's get your opinion out also. I know you want to hear some opinions, as do I, so I figured since you started the post, maybe you could also share your opinion, which you did do now. By just asking this question, you should not be bashed in any way. Maybe your idea will get disagreed with, but it may not be an idea to be performed, but an idea for a discussion. When you said that you didn't want to get flamed, I just took it directly, since some people here do get a little sensitive. I am glad you didn't take my post that way. Your revised question seems a little better and less confusing as to what your plans are.

To everyone else: By know way was I accusing him of breeding or supporting hybrids. Do not think that and do not change any views or opinions on Dane and his dart frog practices. By no way did he say he would mix tinc morphs, I was just seeing what he thought on that since it would be similar to mixing basti colors. Another way of me asking for his opinion to be shared also. :D

Back to the question: As far as the pigment indicating an entirely different morph is a good question. One that I do not have really an expertise (yet at least). I have heard that some pums could lose their color as they age. This wouldn't make it another morph though. I would think the reds should not be bred with yellows as they are clearly a different color. Orange and reds, I have seen some pics where the color is noticeable, and where it is not. So basically, this is a question of opinion and great controversy I believe. How orange does a basti have to be to be considered orange? In other words, how dull of a red color to be considered not a red basti? It is a tough call when dealing with a species that their isn't even a common name for all morphs. So many variations, so many nicknames.
 

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Bastis show extremely variable colors, Kyle Summers did a study on two island populations and they preffered their own morph, but in a terraium setting they would breed with which ever morph is in their. I feel as long as they don't have extremely large diff. in color you will be fine, ie. a red and yellow. Don't drive yourself crazy looking for an exact match.
 

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I'd like to add that I believe you would be hard-pressed to find a Regina, Suriname cobalt and Tafelburg sharing the same 3 foot square space. The tinctorius morphs cover a HUGE range. We are talking about color variations of the same morph in one particular area.

My Bastimentos are orange with large black spots, however, their legs are a whitish-grey with black spots. This leads me to believe that there are genes present from a frog of this color variation.

I am certainly no expert, these are my humble opinions based on the knowledge I've gained over the past few years.
 

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dv beat me to it, the variation of bastis are occuring within meters of each other, not in seperate locals made up entirely of that morph. Bastis can be extremely variable, one breeder commonly sells froglets produced from his bastis as cayo nancies,
 

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I was making the point that to breed different morphs of tinctorius in captivity is in contrast to breeding the different color variations of Bastimentos.
 

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Unfortunately the BDG web site is down and has been for some time. There is an article there that I wrote that discusses population genetics and how it works with respect to frog morphs.

I love it that people get hopped up over the mere thought of mixing. I've ranted about this for years. However, we can go too far on this. There is a fine line between keeping lines pure and selective breeding. I'll just state right up front that I think the bastis can be mixed. There was another thread a month or two ago about this that sprang out of the Man Creek pumilio discussion. Anyway, several people familiar with the frogs of basti chimed in. There are several what I would call sub populations of frogs on the island. Most of them area made up of frogs that are of a single morph within that sub population. The population that Justin took his famous picture of were from a population that is extremely variable. Those frogs were all captured from the same tree trunk. I feel strongly that if frogs come from a variable population, then we shouldn't split them up which amounts to selective breeding for each morph. A naturally variable population is a very cool thing and so would a captive variable population. But what to do about bastis? Some places on the island have frogs that tend to all look one way while other areas that have frogs that look another. Still other places have frogs of every hue and spot pattern in one place. I call these subpopulations because although they are diconnected now, on an island that small, it is highly like that the diconnect and reconnect many times over the span of centuries to millenia (see Summers et al. 1997). This means that the frogs are all part of one interbreeding population over long time spans but are separated genetically over short time spans, but long enough for genetic drift to allow some subpopulations to converge toward a fairly narrow phenotype. For us it means that if you know very specifically within the island where your frogs came from, then you should probably set up groups according to the variability found at that locations. For the all of us who don't have such specific information, the choice is really up to us. If we choose to put like morphs together, then we are mimicking one of the subpopulations that have frogs that look alike. If we mix them up, we are mimicking the subpopulation that Justin photographed. Both are perfectly natural genetic representations of what is found in the wild. The trend now is to put like morphs together but I would like to see at least a few people mixing them up. This is the only group of frogs that I know of that warrants mixing though and it is because of the geologic history of the island habitats where they live.

As for not mixing different importations. That really only applies when we no little or nothing about the location where the frogs were collected (so most of the time). If you know that several imports of frogs came from the same location, then there is no problem. But if you don't know, the logic is that frogs from the same importation are more likely from the same location than frogs from different importations. Obviously there are no guarantees but it is often the best we can do.

Summers, K., E. Bermingham, L. Weigt, and S. McCafferty. 1997. Phenotypic and genetic divergences in three species of dart-poison frogs with contrasting parental behavior. J. Hered. 88:8-13.
 

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geckguy,

Are you sure that pic is from Salt Creek? I've been there, and the pumilio I saw looked nothing like this. These look more like the ones you see near Basti Town, the other end of the island.
 

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Also... thoughts on Basti mixing....

I would say you are o.k. to do it, IF you know the bastis you are working with came from the locale where mixing occurs naturally. For example outside of Basti Town you can find several different colors (see Yeager's pics) all from the same area. However, I wouldn't mix a Basti that came from Playa Largo (beach north of Salt Creek) with bastis from the north end or from Basti Town. These are several miles apart from each other. As far as size of spots go, I saw alot of variety with this. I think its ridiculous to try and pair up bastis based on size of spotting on their backs. That's line breeding for a trait, which I personally don't agree with. Variety is what is in the wild and what we should try to reproduce in our small, closed environments. But then again, we are very limited in our choice as we have no control over the imports, collection sites, etc.
 

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I agree with that. Colors with noticeable differences is one thing, but spots, now you're getting too complicated if you try and match that. Well, you may never match it actually. The different location point is very good. One question that I don't know, when you get a pumilio that is farm raised, are the farms in different locations, or are they spread out, and how do you know what area your particular one is from? Does anyone know? Thanks
 

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The farm green houses are in one place, but they collected breeder stock from different areas, so that is how we have a variety of morphs.
 

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I justed wanted to chime in with my 2 cents. And then I'll be a silent reader.

As far as mixing bastis, if they are from the same area regardless of color, I think it's ok if not desirable. I think this keeps the gene pool more diverse. If we start to selctively breed specific color morphs to get the frog of the exact color we want, we are depriving the natural selection within a population. In the captive environment where there is a set amount of frogs available you will soon be drawing from the shallowest of gene pools. Would I mix cayos with bastis? No. But rather than select all of the "red" basti morphs -vs- all of the "orange" basti morphs -vs-etc., keep the population diverse as it was in the wild. For the finner the traits you select for, the greater the possibility of concentrating an undesirable trait and you are left with a morph that would only represent a smal percentage of the natural population genetically.

OK I'm out....

Mike
 
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