Dendroboard banner

1 - 8 of 8 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello, I’m new to the Dart Frog Community.
I bought a setup a couple months ago that had one Dendrobates Auratus Green and Black and two Dendrobates Auratus highland bronze. (This was before I realized that mixing species, even subspecies was frowned upon) I bought the setup and group of frogs from a craigslist ad. The two Highland Bronze seem to be a breeding pair and have produced two clutches. The first clutch has begun morphing into froglets but the first two both had SLS and sadly passed away. I’m waiting on the others to pop out their front legs and see the results. After doing more research and seeing a post about mixing subspecies when breeding and the negative results that can have (I’ll put the quote below) I began to wonder if the froglets having SLS was more than just a random accident since the parents are given vitamins and all other care parameters are great. I have just come to find out that my male is actually a Dendrobates Auratus El Cope. Would that explain the SLS in the froglets? I still don’t know if the rest will be healthy or not. I have changed the parameters in their vivarium to try and stop them from breeding which has worked thus far. I have also never seen the Green and Black breed with the El Cope. She’s basically the third wheel in the group. I’ve seen the highland bronze take part in some mating rituals i.e. rubbing the male and both of them sitting in the film capsule together and always seeing her with the eggs never the green and black.
My big question is, will all future froglets continue to have SLS? When I bought this whole setup I was quite excited to think about having babies and bought all the necessary supplies to ensure they have the best care, setting a separate vivarium for them to grow up in and everything. I honestly feel so bad for losing two already, I honestly didn’t know the El Cope species existed. When I tried to search what morphs they were (the guy I bought them from couldn’t tell me, red flag I know) highland bronze came up and matched the female perfectly. I just assumed that the male was the same and had a unique pattern that’s all.
I know cross breeding/hybridization is very frowned upon in the community and I do feel terrible for it. So please I’m only looking for help here on what to do.

I know this is not what you want to hear but I would still recommend not mixing subspecies. This is more for line protection than anything else. If they breed (and they will if you are doing everything right) then you will not be able to do anything with the babies accept keep them yourself. You will end up with tuns of tadpoles/froglets and nowhere for them to go (unless someone wants to buy the hybrids, which most people will not). The young MAY also suffer from outbreeding depression, which would mean the young will be sick/not viable. I would find a subspecies that you like and stick with that. I keep Highland Bronze and Turquoise Auratus (separately!) and they are absolutely amazing in my opinion.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,329 Posts
Likely the SLS (if that is what it is) is caused by inappropriate supplementation before you acquired the frogs (couple months ago). Outcrossing, though, could (I suppose) cause defomities that look like SLS -- likely there simply isn't enough collective experience with crossing frogs (thankfully) that anyone has detected patterns of outcomes.

As kind of an aside, if you are saying that the male is an El Cope based on appearance, you may be incorrect -- he could be a cross, too. Determining morphs/locales by appearance isn't reliable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
119 Posts
I bought a setup a couple months ago that had one Dendrobates Auratus Green and Black and two Dendrobates Auratus highland bronze.
Are you basing this on how they look or was this information from the previous owner? How much did he know about his frogs and their origins?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,709 Posts
Often frogs produce duds their first couple clutches. Probably a supplementation issue from before you got them. Here's the question, though...what are you going to do with all the hybridized offspring? Auratus can produce a lot of clutches. You're going to have to either keep them all, give or sell them to someone that was as uniformed as you were, or lie about what they are. Which way are you going with that? Normally if someone posted this same question people would be more eager to respond and help them out. I would suspect people are less forthcoming because they don't want to contribute to creating unsellable hybrids.

Happy to have you joining the hobby, but you should cull those eggs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Likely the SLS (if that is what it is) is caused by inappropriate supplementation before you acquired the frogs (couple months ago). Outcrossing, though, could (I suppose) cause defomities that look like SLS -- likely there simply isn't enough collective experience with crossing frogs (thankfully) that anyone has detected patterns of outcomes.

As kind of an aside, if you are saying that the male is an El Cope based on appearance, you may be incorrect -- he could be a cross, too. Determining morphs/locales by appearance isn't reliable.
Thank you for your kind help. I am just simply going off of appearance to determine their morphs. I can try to post pictures here, but I am new to the site. I thought it was because of lack of supplements before.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Often frogs produce duds their first couple clutches. Probably a supplementation issue from before you got them. Here's the question, though...what are you going to do with all the hybridized offspring? Auratus can produce a lot of clutches. You're going to have to either keep them all, give or sell them to someone that was as uniformed as you were, or lie about what they are. Which way are you going with that? Normally if someone posted this same question people would be more eager to respond and help them out. I would suspect people are less forthcoming because they don't want to contribute to creating unsellable hybrids.

Happy to have you joining the hobby, but you should cull those eggs.
The guy I bought them from claimed they had clutches in the past and showed me a single froglet that looked healthy. The rest could have been sold, or didn’t ever make it past the tadpole stage. All together from the two clutches (and no new ones have been laid in two months since the second clutch) I had 11 fertilized eggs. They were laid three weeks apart. From the first clutch (5), two died from SLS, one died as a tadpole from unknown causes, two I am currently waiting to see if they have SLS as soon as their front legs appear. The second clutch seems to be doing fine and are all alive. I am trying to avoid anymore offspring and I am planning on keeping all of the ones I have that survive. I already have a secondary setup for them. Thank you for your honesty, I understand people’s hesitance. I would like to post pictures of my pair, to see if my thinking is correct on their morphs. And I will be rehoming the green and black
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Are you basing this on how they look or was this information from the previous owner? How much did he know about his frogs and their origins?
I am basing this off of their appearances, id like to post a picture here if that’s possible on this site. He didn’t give much info, but to be honest I didn’t press for much either. I talked to him about the setup and their health, he told me they were Dendrobates Auratus but not the morphs. It was bad on my part to just assume what they were. I was also misled by the fact that he talked about them producing previous clutches and had one single froglet still with him to show me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
I am basing this off of their appearances, id like to post a picture here if that’s possible on this site. He didn’t give much info, but to be honest I didn’t press for much either. I talked to him about the setup and their health, he told me they were Dendrobates Auratus but not the morphs. It was bad on my part to just assume what they were. I was also misled by the fact that he talked about them producing previous clutches and had one single froglet still with him to show me.
295549
This is the male, what I assume is actually an El Cope
295550

This is the female, I assume a highland bronze
 
1 - 8 of 8 Posts
Top