[Hallz9]

I filled this out and explained some of my problems on the bottom of post.


Answer all these questions as best you can (cut and paste):


1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?


2 northern American tree frogs, "Spring peepers," from outside since May 2020. The first one, Major, jumped on me while I was at the pool at my friends house who was I brought him home and thought he couldn't be happier. Then I thought he might be lonely and so spent days searching for the same breed, and i found Warner.


2. What are your temperatures -day and night - highs and lows ? Are the enclosure lights too hot ?

C:

I have it around 55 to 75 sometimes use my red infrared bulb when its cold and can't keep up the heat that long.



3. What is the Humidity like ? - type of Water are you using? Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top.


I don't know how to tell the Humidity, i will purchase something if i need to.. please let me know what i should get.. i mist the 10 gallon tank with a spray bottle and leave clean water inside every day. I stay away from tap water.. I was using purified but now im using distilled.


4. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it ? What superfine powdered supplements are you using and are they fresh ?


Flightless fruitflies, meal worms, crickets but stopped. Im only giving a few flys every day that aren't getting eaten. That's because of how scared they look when near any insect, they look like they are panicking. I feel they were attacked by the crickets. I don't know what dusting is, the only supplement I have is calcium that sprays in the water.


I just spray one pump every water change.


5. Any other animals in thepplenclosure currently or recently ? Tankmates / other frogs ?


3 separate tanks


6. Any type of behaviour you would consider 'odd' ?


Scared


7. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?

Yes cant think of anything.

8. Can you take pictures of EVERYTHING ? The frogs, the enclosure ? Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a bannana




5 tree frogs in total. 2 lemurs, 2 peepers, one baby froglet.


I love frogs but I don't know anyone that has owned a pet frog to ask.


My peepers look uncomfortable in their own skin. To the point where one drags his back legs while he hops and crawls around. He frequently slides his front limb over his face. skin looks bump, they stopped eating, I used to feed them crickets, flys, and meal worms. I would give them one at a time. But a few times I threw a few crickets in the tank before going to work. During the cricket shortage, I ordered larger crickets but they seemed to eat them just fine. Since then, they have been not eating anything but they do drink a lot of water. They look as if they a red terrified of insects now. I don't know what to do


They both have all the symptoms of being ill or beginning to die. They aren't eating and it seems like they are suddenly scared of crickets which I've been feeding them and they have been happy with that in the past. Since the cricket shortage, they had only larger kinds of crickets in the pet store. Which they ate just fine but now it seems like something happened. I don't know if they were bitten or got sick but they won't eat crickets, meal worms, or Flys now. It seems like they are frightened now by the insects. I think they were traumatized. Can anyone offer some advice on what to feed them or what to do in order to help them get over that? Its been weeks now. They just drink a lot of water. They are tree frogs, peepers. They were not like this before. If someone can help please let me know. Thanks



Also the little one, Lilly has only been out of water near a week. Please help me with some advice on how to care for it. Thank you. Im not sure if she's eating or not. Im not sure how to prepare the springtails in the cage. I noticed some boney looking bumps on her back and idk if its normal. Its becoming more pronounced.


I live in NJ if anyone around here can help.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

I don't keep native frogs but in the pics I think I see one peeper and two gray tree frogs.

It is hard to say what is the issue with your frogs, but I suspect calcium (and/or other vitamin/mineral) deficiency. The 'bony bumbs' may be skeletal abnormalities caused by a lack of calcium. Only a vet could say for certain. You can find a qualified exotics vet using the search feature here:

https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661

"Calcium spray" (Zilla brand?) is not a sufficient supplement. 'Dusting' means to coat feeder insects in a complete powdered supplement such as 'Repashy Calcium Plus' at every feeding.

Here is a decent gray tree frog care sheet that may help:

Gray Tree Frog Pet Care Sheet >> Amphibian Care

Gray tree frogs need the proper diet, housing, temperature and care to live well in captivity. This article is an overview of gray tree frog pet care.

amphibiancare.com

 

[Gastrotheca]

I think another problem that you may be encountering is humidity. Even though you are misting once a day and refilling their water dish, there aren't enough objects to absorb/retain the moisture. When you mist you probably have a spike of humidity to about = 80%. However, since there is nothing in the enclosure to absorb that moisture or retain it, the humidity is probably going back down to around = 20% to 50% within an hour or so of misting.

You can combat this by making a bioactive enclosure with real plants. One of the issues with 100% fake plants and decor, is that they do not hold any humidity and dry the air out. Your substrate appears to be either orchid bark or repti-bark. This dies out so quickly it is amazing. You can just get a light, some cheap plants from the hardware store or local nursery, and do some reading on how to keep bioactive enclosures and substrates. You can find a lot of good info here!

Good Luck!

Gastrotheca
----------------------------
Crested Gecko 0.2.0

 

[Broseph]

My gears were turning while reading your whole post until I came across

one drags his back legs while he hops and crawls around

That shouts calcium deficiency to me. As SM mentioned, Repashy Calcium Plus is what I would be dusting prey items with- at every feeding. Also, spring peepers are small frogs, and I would probably make fruit flies the dietary staple.

A qualified vet is the obvious choice here. If this frog was dropped on my door step, I’d sequester to a hospital enclosure and treat with Calcium gluconate (as described in other threads about Calcium deficiency on DB). I am not a vet and there may be more appropriate actions to take, but that’s where I’d start.

 

[Chris S]

As suggested, these are Grey Tree frogs (Hyla versicolor) or Cope's Gray Tree frogs (Hyla chrysocelis) depending on where you are from. The smaller one is just a juvenile, and is often mistaken for a Spring Peeper at that age.

I'd suggest as a general rule that in the future you leave wild frogs in the wild. That said, I found one of these guys in my shower in the dead of winter about two years ago, so did keep one for about 6 months until I could release it once it warmed up. These frogs are generally pretty hardy though, and live in a wide range of both temperature and humidity levels. Now that you have kept them in proximity to tropical animals, I would highly suggest NOT releasing them to prevent any disease spread.

You shouldn't see them sitting in the water during the day. They are primarily nocturnal. This means the environment is WAY to dry.

If one is dragging their leg, I would ask if it was dropped or otherwise handled improperly?

Bumps appearing on their backs may be a sign of them losing weight due to not eating.

Some additional things to the above:

1. Ensure you are leaving out a soaking area and you are use dechlorinated water when refilling it. I think this may be your number one problem here, amongst quite a few others.

2. Suggest adding a "coco hut" to allow for hiding and an area to keep humidity slightly higher.

3. Cover a portion of the top of the enclosure if you can, so keep the humidity up. Plastic/glass, whatever you can get. Cover 3/4 of it if possible.

4. As suggested, dust crickets with "Repashy Calcium +" every feeding and every couple of weeks supplement with "Repashy Supervite". There are other brands, but these are reliable and commonly available.

5. Add some larger, vertically orientated branches. Thickness should be about the frogs thickness. They will feel more comfortable on these branches. Try cork branches from a local pet store. You can cut them to make them fit vertically.

6. As Gastrotheca mentioned, you may want to add a drainage layer and some real substrate. You can then add things like real plants, and Springtails or isopods to help keep the tank clean. Overall it will make for a healthier tank for them.

Good luck - and I still do strongly believe we have pet stores and breeders for a reason: Leave the wild stuff in the wild!

 

[Kmc]

Im not clear on some of the question responses OP.

The frogs need to be out of that dry tank and into hospital tank. Moist papel towel. Hiding place. No red heat lamp. No calcium spray.

More than one thing seems be going on.

They need veterinary treatment.

Native frogs are best left in their natural habitat. Its a difficult lesson, but all the best lessons sting.

 

[Kmc]

Its not all your fault Hallz. You mention a product, a calcium spray. You also mention an infrared heat lamp. Infrared heat lamps require alot of precautionary stewardship. Very rarely, is such dense radiant heat used with amphibians, and never with any the species you have. Yet i know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if the pet store clerk didnt set you up with it, he didnt make any inquiries on its use.

The can of spray calcium and its other versions looks like a real product. But, it isnt. Its a marketed item designed to do no harm, but the harm it does do is impy it does good, and replace normal dietary and lighting needs.
Everyone who has posted here has really good information to absorb.
It would be good to set up the hospital tank and get to a store, i know its tough right now, but you should get some unflavored pedialyte.

 

[Kmc]

Can you get photos without the glass of the all the frogs? I am also not sure of who you are talking about, the peepers or the grays or both? with the two threads and the photos what looks to me is the grays on the bridge artifact look bad.

You answered Yes , nothing I could think of on the Handling question.

Does that mean: Yes, they were handled but none of the contact elements cited present?

If you handle, or if children potentially handle, you need to be transparent.

There is a vagueness to your wording that obstructs help.

Just out of curiosity, what is the abalone shell with dried coco sub for?

 

[Philsuma]

Dunno if it's been covered above - I didn't see it, but ya can't use fake plants for Frogs. Frogs of all types need actual live plants to help hold humidity. Fake plants probably suck the moisture right outa that frogs. Seriously. You should have gone to your local garden store and bought a 19.00 large pothos which is nearly un-killable. A large pothos filling up @ 60% of that entire space would have been great - so many levels and layers of leaves with humidity.

 

[Kmc]

Grays soaking in broad daylight or the artificial facsimile of it, is highly irregular.

Somehow though i dont think the ambient aridity or lack of nutritional calcium is the only factor at play.

There is alot going on and clarity isnt ideal.

I suggest simple and forthright history.

 

[E.Shell]

Another aspect of the "fear" may be that mature grey tree frogs far exceed spring peepers in size and probably eat them.

 

[Hallz9]

Thanks im going to take all of that in account and will update you all as I get their things together. If they still show no signs of improvement then I will bring them to redbank hospital. and I hope that they will get better soon as there is only one doctor in the state with an exotic license- I was just told recently and it could be super costly to bring them all to see a vet. I wish I could get health insurance for them. I learned my lesson about keeping the wild grays, and yes they do look like grays BTW. Thank you very much for identifying them as I've been calling them spring peepers the whole time. But- I will not let them back loose in the wild now. I would fear too much for them at this point. The reson I tool the first small gray in the first place was because he had jumped on me while i was at a friends pool. And the friend was talking about how much he hated frogs and wanted to kill them all as they were "pests," he did not allow me to let the frog be placed back in his yard and so I brought him home with me. I went and looked for another one to keep him company and looked in my friends yard for a long time and also looked by the road where I see them hop across the road every year and drivers wont even stop while they cross the road during the rainy weather. There used to be days that there were hundreds of them and many would get run over. After no luck one day the larger gray had surprsingly made his way to the front door, (litterally), of my friends house, very stressed out and in bad shape. I nursed him back and they were both great but something happened right after that cricket shortage. I feel just terrible.

I had purchased a few things the other day from Josh's Frogs including a new tank, plants, heating bulbs, different types of flooring, springtails, a new hide that promotes humidification and I am going to take your advice about trying to create a bioactive atmosphere for them. I also have already been giving them clear Pedialyte and i think that is hw they are alive.

My grays do look like they are big enough to eat the others so I keep them separate. They are all different sizes and the lemurs and the froglet are much to small and fragile to be in the same cage as the grays. I am also afraid to put the tiny froglet with the lemurs. Is that the right thing to do?
Is it possible that they (grays), are so used to hibernation that they usually don't eat when its cold? They haven't eaten anything at all in over 3 weeks, not even the fruit flies which is what I give them now explicitly.

Is there a certain tool that I could use to hand feed them the insects? I think that my lemurs were used to that at their previous home at the pet store because one of them, while in my hand and wrapped around my finger. it had opened its mouth up as if it were waiting for me to feed it. I felt so bad because I dont have that kind of feeder. And none of my frogs are doing good with crickets right now as they all show signs of fear when they spot a cricket in their cage. Its especially abnormal for my grays to act that way as they used to run to the crickets and couldnt get to them sooner. I am afraid that i overfed them or that they(the crickets), had attacked my frogs. Maybe they were a different type of cricket?

When I answered the question, yes to being handled, is because I do seldom hold the frogs in my hand especialy during the time when I was in fear of them dying. I dont have children so I know that they are only handled with extreme caution. Another thing i noticed besides the limping of my bigger gray, in that they both have lost alot of the stickiness under their toes. I noticed this watching them crawl up the sides of the glass and they dont have the same grip as they once did.

I have always used distilled water or spring water. I have never used tap water.The brown stuff inside of the shell is a shell full of springtails that i left inside with the small froglet after I had learned the tad would need a very small insect to feed on in order to eat. That is why i asked for advice on how to prepare the springtails for the baby frog that just metamorphized from a tadpole,( just a couple weeks now)?

Also is there some kind of automated mister of some sort or humidifier that is better than the manual method of a spray bottle?

Thanks for the other tips like the,
*Pothos, Repashy calcium, calcium gluconate, vertical tree branches, ill look into all of this and thanks for the article about the grey's care. I will use that as a reference.

i feel just terrible. I love my animals and just want them to get better. I think i may be able to afford a vet bill if i had to but I don't know if I can handle 5 and I'm a nervous wreck that its going to cost well over 1000 dollars. I cant sleep at night thinking they might be suffering and its my fault. Someone told me that it could cost maybe up to 1000 per each for that kind of care. I already spent about 400 this last week and a lot more before that. They are not cheap. I'm going to take pictures soon and post them of each and every frog. Like I said, if anyone has any advice that they think might help, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot for all that have and I'm sorry for the last post being hard to understand as i was typing from a cell phone and it was extremely hard to see what i was doing on that screen.

 

[Kmc]

Order some waxworms, small hornworms, small earthworms, if you cant get crickets.

The fruit flies are not a suitable size or your gray tree frogs to catch and eat.

A hand mister is fine if you use it correctly and can mist down the environment completely. You may need to till some water through the sub to hydrate it it looks very dry. Sure an automated mister can be a great tool but i think you had better concentrate on the actual frog guys.

No you cant put the peepers with the lemurs. It could make them sick.

Hope that helps. Good job with the pedialyte Hallz.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

Also is there some kind of automated mister of some sort or humidifier that is better than the manual method of a spray bottle?

No, there isn't. There are more convenient (for you) options, but none that work better.

I think i may be able to afford a vet bill if i had to but I don't know if I can handle 5 and I'm a nervous wreck that its going to cost well over 1000 dollars. I cant sleep at night thinking they might be suffering and its my fault. Someone told me that it could cost maybe up to 1000 per each for that kind of care. I already spent about 400 this last week and a lot more before that. They are not cheap

If you call the vet, they will be able to give you pricing guidance. "Someone...maybe" isn't useful information. Call the vet. Likely, it will only be a office charge and a D3 injection and some calcium drops.

I am also afraid to put the tiny froglet with the lemurs. Is that the right thing to do?

Do not mix species. This can/will greatly complicate your situation, and is poor husbandry in any event.

I had purchased a few things the other day from Josh's Frogs including a new tank, plants, heating bulbs, different types of flooring, springtails, a new hide that promotes humidification

All useful equipment in the long term, although it isn't clear that most of the equipment you have right now is a pressing problem -- if the heat lights are too intense, put them on a simple inline dimmer and check the temps with an IR temp gun; any viv can be partially covered to retain humidity and simply misted more and more often; a specially designed hide isn't needed, you can just invert a plant pot, or cut a hole in a yogurt container, and squirt water under it.

The immediate concern is the not eating/no supplements for six months, which a vet can address immediately, but which isn't addressed by any of the changes you're proposing. The next concern is reading as much as you can about general care, looking at pics of other keepers' vivs (for the species you're keeping; dart frog vivs are different), and searching the archives here and on other forums more directed toward tree frogs about the specific topics at issue: temps, humidity, misting methods, supplementation, species mixing, failure to feed, appropriate prey size, and so on.

 

[Kmc]

Hallz, there is another option i do not know if it is available to you, but, it may be.

Most states, counties even, have Natural History museums. Many of these have a wildlife care and rehabilitation component. These also often have state funded or pro bono veterinarians that service injured, orphaned and ill fauna.

I spent my youth in volunteership in such a place and as an adult got to work for the exotics vet that did pro bono work for them.

Nature museums dont seem to have changed much in this, at least in the state i live.

Animals rehabed often become permanent displays - 'ambassadors' if you will, and enjoy good forever care.

If it happens that this option is a spark of possibility, it means you would be ethically relinquished of this painful circumstance, and perhaps even get to see them in display. No promises, just saying it has happened.

It may require a long drive. We are here to help you with your transport questions, to make sure the trip is as easy on them as possible.

Its just an idea.

 

[Hallz9]

Hello. I just want to let everyone know that Major ate a few small crickets this morning! I whitnessed him eat 2. The other grey displayed abnormal behaviour I think and I took a video of it in order for you all to give me advice on what this could be. Please look at this video link. It seems like as soon as Warner had seen the cricket, he had a nervous attack maybe? I wish I had gotten video of what he did before this small clip. He did things in the most careful way, and every second looking in another direction, as if he were a paranoid. Then almost collapsed into like a hiccup in the water dish. If anyone knows what this is, please help. It looks like an obvious sign that he was excited and I think the cricket triggered it.

1.(Warners Video Click here)

2.(Video of Major eating!)

Let me know if you can't access the video clips. Thanks!

 

[Kmc]

Ok i saw Major eating. The other link a no go but maybe later.

Get a bowl preferably one without fluted sides. Arrange branches, or the bridge, in a stable way around the bowl so that when they perch they look down and see the crickets.

This will help prevent a piece of that bark from being ingested. But of most immediate value, it will enable the frogs to score as many crickets as possible before they disappear in the environment. Maki g the most out of energy expense in the wake of a compromising time.

From what i see the Major frog has good carriage and responses. The otger vid says sender cancelled.

 

[Kmc]

Do not use an overly deep, flimsy or clear bowl. It needs to be solid, and untippable per wieght of the frogs on its lip.

3 or 4 inches tall is probably a good go for.

 

[Chris S]

I can only see the second video.

The frog doesn't look emaciated, so I suspect their "fear" of the crickets is more likely a fear of you - and they eat later when you are not around.

I think you need to resolve the humidity level though, as it is quite uncommon to see them sitting in water during the day. Spray more and get some substrate/hides to keep some areas a bit damper. During the heat of the summer, these frogs often climb waaaay up into the forest canopy and spend their days in crevices inside trees that remain moist. Try to mimic that with a hide (or multiple hides) or something. They are extremely hardy frogs, tolerating both extreme heat and extreme cold. Obviously we don't want to replicate either of these here though!

Make sure you are dusting your crickets, every time. In addition, try to gut-load them and make them generally healthier by feeding them good food during the week. A good staple, from my own experience only, is a good quality dog food. It doesn't mold and lasts a long time. Supplement with Potato + fruit/veg scraps to ensure they are getting water/moisture.

I would still definitely see a vet regarding any impaired mobility for either frog.

As for taking them out of the wild - there is no need to explain or defend yourself. It is with best intentions most people do this, but certainly keep these points in mind. The largest concern, truly, is the potential spread of disease from tropical pets released back into the wild. If you have time, do some reading on Chytridiomycosis / Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis and the huge negative impacts it has had worldwide. It is, sadly, better to let a single Gray Tree frog be killed than risk their entire population!

With that said, it is only that which we understand that we appreciate, and in the end only the things in life we appreciate we will save and protect. So education is extremely important - there is a delicate balance for sure.

Best of luck! Lots of great advice on this thread for you from some others that are much more equipped to help you than me.

 

[Kmc]

Cool. I really love it when people rally around some animals like this, its the best.

Hallz, in the future of this thread, or in any description you give a helping entity, vet, keeper, a tip - stick with observable data.

What that means is to only describe as accurately as you can the conditions, appearance and event of the problem or suspected problem.

Describe what you see without adding what you think it means.

Leave out what you think the frog wants or feels or the reasons for his actions and just describe what you are seeing, and what the circumstances are.

This provides a clearer picture to helpers.