Dendroboard banner

1 - 20 of 42 Posts
G

·
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
At the risk of sounding harsh, what is wrong with making a few extra bucks off a "hobby"? To you it's a hobby, because you do not have the capitol, facility or the know how to raise and breed eighty to a hundred different species for profit.

What are you saying to people who do not view it as a hobby?
Thomas Villegas from Pumilio.com works very hard. He breeds the most expensive frogs he can, and if a "money maker" comes available to him, he will work with it for the purpose of making money.

Aaron Handzlik up in New York, a very good friend of mine, has over four hundred breeding pairs of poison frogs. He makes about five or six grand a month doing dart frogs.

Do you sell your offspring? If you do, you are making a few extra bucks off your hobby, and that makes you a hypocrite. By your standard, anybody who selectively breeds for a certain bloodline is bad, because they are selectively breeding for color, be it bright blue legs, or whatever.

Let it go. Many out there are immensely enthralled by albinos, and find the abberation beautiful to behold. Besides, leucs are quite the seasonal breeder for most, so a spate of albinos will become an annual thing at best for all but the most skilled of poison frog breeders.

John Gibeau
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
8,733 Posts
Was *everyone* there?

I tend to sit on things and let the folks do their own announcing of what they want to know. Unless it's on their website or something along that line.

Oh - did he mention the thing about "male" pumilio there?

s
Tincs.com said:
Scott said:
Hey John,

I'll bet that if Patrick had wanted everyone to know about that line of frogs he'd had told everyone by now.

s
Patrick did - At his talk at NWFF, didn't he?

John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,274 Posts
I wasn't going to comment but I find it hard to believe that Patrick would purposefully release (sell) only male pumilio into the hobby. Where is this coming from, did he state this or are you making assumptions based on the fact that there are a lot of males floating around in the hobby? I got a couple of bastis from him a few years ago and one or two are females.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Guys,

Looking at this objectively, it makes no sense to only release males. From a pure market analysis it would simple be stupid to hold females to build demand. Assuming that the sexes are equally produced (although this is wrong, the fact that thumbs overproduce males doesn't help your argument) Patrick would be reducing his supply by 50%. To be profitable, the demand would have to double. The problem with doubling demand is that dart frogs are a luxury item (elastic market). Demand is already high enough for him to charge a premium for his product, without holding back 1/2 of his supply.

The argument that preventing males from to enter the market to keep a monopoly also makes no sense. The ability for most hobbyists to meet the quantity, quality, and service provided by professional breeders is extremely limited. Patrick moves absurd amounts of stock, and I promise that a few cb pumilio are not going to affect his market share. Even if it was to affect his market share, it would have to do so by 50% to make these hold backs profitable.

Now my subjective comment. Are you kidding me?

~Joe
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
986 Posts
Tincs.com said:
Just my opinion, and not meant as a bash on Patrick. He is good at what he does.

John
It sure comes across as a bash. I certainly doubt Patrick would appreciate that type of allegation.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
John,

I think (hope) we may all be miss-understanding your statements. If you are claiming that Patrick is holding back females to prevent competition, that's complete bologna. I stand by my previous post, that it makes no financial sense. He isn't the only source of pumilio. If you are claiming that he is holding back female to make pairs, then that is a much less nasty claim. He has every right to take care of his business and family, by ensuring that he can produce as much stock as possible. Since pums produce male dominant numbers, this is pretty much a foregone conclusion. It makes absolute sense. If you want sexed pairs, pay the price. If you want to inform people about this commercial breeding paradox/reality, please do. But, don't go public that someone is holding back to defeat competition.

~Joe
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,799 Posts
Tincs.com said:
At the risk of sounding harsh, what is wrong with making a few extra bucks off a "hobby"? To you it's a hobby, because you do not have the capitol, facility or the know how to raise and breed eighty to a hundred different species for profit.

What are you saying to people who do not view it as a hobby? Patrick Nabors does not view it as a hobby. He views it as a way to make a living. He is working with an albino reticulatus, and I guarantee you, will do whatever he can to maintain the same corner on that morph as long as he can, just like he did with pumilio, by only selling males for the longest time. Go ahead, tell him he is a bad dart frog breeder because he is selectively breeding the albino retic.

Thomas Villegas from Pumilio.com works very hard. He breeds the most expensive frogs he can, and if a "money maker" comes available to him, he will work with it for the purpose of making money.

Aaron Handzlik up in New York, a very good friend of mine, has over four hundred breeding pairs of poison frogs. He makes about five or six grand a month doing dart frogs.

Do you sell your offspring? If you do, you are making a few extra bucks off your hobby, and that makes you a hypocrite. By your standard, anybody who selectively breeds for a certain bloodline is bad, because they are selectively breeding for color, be it bright blue legs, or whatever.

Let it go. Many out there are immensely enthralled by albinos, and find the abberation beautiful to behold. Besides, leucs are quite the seasonal breeder for most, so a spate of albinos will become an annual thing at best for all but the most skilled of poison frog breeders.

John Gibeau
Yes, but why risk the integrity of the frogs whcih could cause major problems later on in the hobby for money? Thats my point. I see no problem in people breeding frogs for money, but selectively breeding them to get albinos can cause problems.

Ryan

EDIT:
Oh yeah, and of course I dont have a problem with responsible breeding of the pdfs for money. If it wasnt for it the majority of us wouldn't beable to own them today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
129 Posts
Accusations of Unethical Business Practices

Hi all, a couple of people let me know this was going on, and that perhaps I would like to weigh in on it....so, here I am!
First let me say that I have never sold John a frog. I am sure I have sold Bastimentos to people John knows, but never John, so I dont know where he gets off implying that he has bought frogs from me. This statement that follows is utter unadulterated BS, and John will not be able to provide a shred of evidence that it is true.

" A few of us here are suspicious that this might have been going on, since some of us would buy from Saurian, and in numbers along the lines of ten or twelve, and every single one would be calling in the cup. "

This accusation is one of unethical business practices, and I am offended by it. It would basically be fraud to sell people frogs which you knew the sex ratio of, and not tell them. I think an apology is in order, along with a statement that you have no knowledge of any such practice on my part.

I have never had a customer tell me a pumilio that I shipped them was calling in the cup, and I have never sent any one ten pumilio to have them all turn out male, to my knowledge. I have often warned/advised my customers that there is a high male sex ratio in captive bred Bastimentos pumilio, at least those I produce, and have freely speculated that you might get as few as two or three females in each group of ten frogs. I have had a couple of customers get five and six and have them all turn out to be males, but these things happen, for instance I recently purchased ten
Santa Isabella tricolors and had them all turn out male, and purchased ten Red vents and had them turn out 9.1. Skewed sex ratios seem to be a fact of life in the captive breeding of dart frogs.
I certainly have sent out plenty of female pumilios, if I have to I am certain I can round up a parade of people to say that they got females from me, and are breeding them.

As for the albino retics, its fine that John mentioned them, after all I did mention them in a talk to fifty or so people, along with a slide of them....they are not a particularly exciting project, just a curiousity, and I personally dont think that they will sell for as much as regular retics by the time, and or if, I get them to "market". For now they are an occasional offspring from a pair, and the froglets dont do that well.

John, I will repeat what many have said before me to you, grow up and dont run your mouth when you dont know what you are talking about.
One more thing....in a recent Kingsnake post you concluded with saying your collection numbered over forty species of dart frogs, but didnt want to bore anyone with your species. I for one, having only a meager low to mid twenties in my species count, am very curious to see the list of your forty plus species in your collection.

Thanks to all for reading!!
Patrick
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,799 Posts
Nice to here both sides. At first i didnt realize what he was saying about the calling in cups, then I noticed it, guess shouldnt read at 5 in the morning.

If I start ordering darts from the internet and not shows Patrick is my top choice so far.

Ryan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
181 Posts
I got two basti's from Patrick several years ago and they both turned out to be females. It sounds like I was pretty lucky, it made it easy to find a male:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
301 Posts
Thanks for your post Patrick, I was laughing at this ridiculousness, I don't think it could be taken seriously.

I do want to say though that Patrick has sold/traded us wonderful frogs over the many years we've known him. When he has had a single frog and we have had a single frog, he has shipped his loner to us to work with, which has done great things for our breeding groups. Not really the mark of someone who is trying to quell other frog breeders.


Christina
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
129 Posts
Hi John, sorry I forgot you were a customer, my memory isnt the greatest some times. Anyway John, I feel you are missing the point.

I appreciate all your compliments, your repeated statements that my frogs are great, but this, to me, is simply camouflage for the other comments, which are, to me, very serious! These other comments are not presented as opinions, rather as facts….you say in your first quote “just like he did with pumilio, by only selling males for the longest time.” This comment does not read as opinon, but rather as if it were a matter of public knowledge, an established fact. So while you compliment my “wonderful” frogs, you let it "slip" that I deliberately cull the females from my customers orders, sending out only males. As if you had inside knowledge of this practice. This would be fraud, and I feel strongly that you are asserting that I routinely defraud my customers in this way, or have in the past, thus my demand for an apology. Later you somewhat revise your statement to say that “A few of us here are suspicious that this might have been going on” which is certainly a bit less inflammatory, and not as direct an accusation, but none the less an unpleasant smear. Even in your last post, at the end you imply that since I am making a fuss, I must be guilty.

You seem to think that I am taking this too seriously, but this is my livlihood, and I have a good reptutation because I try to treat my customers right. What you are saying you think I do is certainly not treating people right, and I wouldnt expect many people to buy from me if they thought I might be manipulating them in this way.

The other assertion you make that I take issue with is your statement that you and at least one other person, presumably one if not more of my customers, have been there to see ten to twelve of my Bastimentos pumilio calling in the shipping cups after the box was opened. I find this very difficult to believe, in fact while I have sent over sixty Bastimentos to the Seattle area in the past three years, I have only sent ten Bastimentos pumilio at one time to the Seattle area twice, and one of those occasions was a shipment of ten to one person, so I doubt you were there when that box was opened. As best I can tell in looking through my records,(which are much better than my memory!) the only time I have ever sent a shipment of over eight Bastimentos to more than one person in the Seattle area was in October of ’03. I will contact both parties tomorrow, and find out if they too witnessed this rather remarkable phenomenon.

In conclusion, John, I do feel that you have indeed besmirched my reputation, by accusing me of ripping off my customers, by deliberately sending them all males. You have admitted that you cant prove it, so that alone is reason enough for an apology for your first statement. In addition you have stated that you and a group of people witnessed ten or twelve of my pumilio calling in their cups, so if that is the case, I would like to hear from the other parties, and since there are only a very small number of possible parties on that list, I will contact them to resolve it, and report back to this forum what I find, or if one of the other witnesses wishes to confirm Johns observation, I would be very interested to hear about it.

PS…John, sorry I jumped to conclusions there regarding your collection, since it was the arrow frog forum, I assumed that you were referring to dart frogs. I can easily see that you could have forty or more species of frogs. I was just curious and had been since I saw the post. My curiousity is satisfied, thanks for responding.

Patrick
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Tincs.com said:
Patrick, this has gone way off on a side tangent, and does not need to be aired publicly any longer. Give me a call this evening if you will - (360) 799-1964.

John

I don't mean to offend either party or to stir the coals, and with that said, as a potential customer of Saurian, I'd like to see this settled publicly.

I have not bought from Saurian yet, and this thread could cause me some extra work as a consumer (as in, making sure that Suarian wouldn't deliberately hold back females). I am willing to go to that work, but how many of Patrick's potential customers are? If I didn't happen to have experienced contacts in the hobby, I might just not take the chance and buy from someone else. It wouldn't matter how wonderful his frogs are, who would want to buy from such a jerk?

"The word suspicious was used because there is NO evidence. Patrick is exactly right, I cannot and have no reason or inclination to "provide" evidence to support and prosecute this idea, or thought process. It was just curious to me when a large group would come in, and be all male, a complaint would be made, and wow! the next group is only one male and all females. There is no "evidence" of wrongdoing, just a thought, and those, even on a public forum, are legal, contrary to popular belief. "

So, just for clarity's sake, let me restate this and tell me if I'm wrong, please.

John wrote: "He is working with an albino reticulatus, and I guarantee you, will do whatever he can to maintain the same corner on that morph as long as he can, just like he did with pumilio, by only selling males for the longest time," and then wrote "My opinion stands, Patrick gets no apology for my opinion"

...So the stray claim that Patrick was only selling male pumilio for the longest time was just an opinion that was based on "no evidence." Is this correct?
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top