[AOA215]

Hi everyone, (heavy reading ahead!)

I know that this website is mainly for pdt's, but I have a major question about a different type of amphibian. Like many reptile/amphibian keepers, I am maintaining a fire belly toad enclosure. I currently have only one in a 10 gallon vivarium. It's setup with a gravel substrate, several rock caves, and a decent sized water dish.

I have been researching paludariums and other realistic enclosures for years, and this Christmas I plan on completely redoing the toad's enclosure. I'd like to get several more (of course quarantining them before introducing them to my current fbt) and upgrade their enclosure to a 40 gallon breeder, or perhaps a 50 gallon tank.

I plan to make it a paludarium with a hill on the right (with a cave under the hill) and a small pond on the front left. There would be two waterstreams flowing into this pond. One coming straight down from the hill into the water and the other falling into the cave before flowing out into the pond. This way, the toads would have several places to hide and hang out. Of course live plants would be all over the tank. I'd like to stick to more of a biotope for the plant life, but tbh I'll probably end up straying from that idea.

My main question is if it would be possible to house the toads with one to two (three at most) green anoles. The anoles would have many branches (manzanita, driftwood, cork bark), cliff walls, and plants to climb on at the top of the tank, along with a basking lamp of course. Since the two species occupy different environmental niches, they wouldn't interact much. The big question is whether or not the anoles would be poisoned by the toads mild toxins. Although I will probably use a strong external filter (maybe a strong internal one), I don't know if the anoles would be poisoned by drinking from the hill stream. I've seen skilled keepers such as SerpaDesign keep fbt's with fish with no problems poison related, but I'm not sure about the anoles.

I understand that this is a forum mainly for pdt's but any advice is welcome. If in the end it's not possible or smart to keep the toads with anoles, I'm totally fine.

Thanks so much in advance!

 

[Encyclia]

Welcome to the board! I moved this to the Other Amphibians - Toads section hoping that someone that knows more about these guys will be able to help.

Mark

 

[AOA215]

Ok, thanks so much! I'm looking forward to being a part of the forum.

 

[Kmc]

No, it's not a good idea.

Anoles are solar centric and should not be confined to such close proxy to a temperate and significantly watery environment.

 

[AOA215]

Ok, thanks for the advice. Is there anything that I'd be able to do to make it more comfortable for the anoles? Or is it overall just better to go with fbt's only? And are there any other amphibians or reptiles that would be able to live with the toads?

Many thanks, AOA

 

[fishingguy12345]

Mixing species is almost never a good idea...

 

[AOA215]

Alright, it seems that most people have had bad experiences with mixed species enclosures, something I'm well aware of. What I have decided to do is only keep the fire belly toads and some fish, at least until I have done further research. Of course the animals' needs and comfort come before my wants, and I would rather not cause the harm of any creatures. Thank you for the advice, and happy herping!


P.S - my original thoughts about the possibility of housing fbt's and green anoles together came from this Reptiles Magazine article:
https://www.reptilesmagazine.com/mi...mall day geckos,good balance with these frogs.

 

[Kmc]

Yes, we are aware.

It's still not a good idea.

It opens the window to an exacerbate of stressors, sp optimum zone 'shrinkage' pathogenic potentially to name a few.

Anoles are sensitive, mentally, also.

They deserve a more thoughtful habitat.

 

[AOA215]

I see. Thank you so much everyone for warning me about the dangers of doing this. I'm still excited to make a new paludarium for my toads though! Once I begin work on it, I'll most likely be posting pictures on here/doing a build log.
Thanks!

 

[Kmc]

They are wonderful guys. And I think they are spectacularly colorful.

The thing is some sources will kind of cater to the hobbyist, while others take another direction, of species enamore. And spoil em' with a utopia brimming with goodness that we build for them.

Lots of times ppl cite zoo multi species environments but they too have a motive usually, of catering to visitor factors. Much of these is designed to represent ecological slices of the world. What people dont realize is that animals are replaced, or seen by zoo vets regularly, and are displays stewarded by keepers and curators and scientists.

There have been multi sp env that have been successful long term but they are most often walk in large.

 

[Kmc]

AOA, I unite with your excitement; there's alot of ways to build a fire bellied env. I will share that my favorite way is what I call a Grotto style, pretty much all rock, or equivalent artificial hardscape, no gravel, no soil. Pothos.

I like river rocks and jutting feature on the bottom to create depth differences and surfaces variety for the toads. But, there's alot of ways to do it. I just think they should have ample swimming opportunity.

These guys have a rambunctious activity , feeding and defecatory rate.

Moving/aggregate water will keep breeding at bay, which can be a blessing in disguise. Depending on your free time haha

 

[AOA215]

AOA, I unite with your excitement; there's alot of ways to build a fire bellied env. I will share that my favorite way is what I call a Grotto style, pretty much all rock, or equivalent artificial hardscape, no gravel, no soil. Pothos.

I like river rocks and jutting feature on the bottom to create depth differences and surfaces variety for the toads. But, there's alot of ways to do it. I just think they should have ample swimming opportunity.

These guys have a rambunctious activity , feeding and defecatory rate.

Moving/aggregate water will keep breeding at bay, which can be a blessing in disguise. Depending on your free time haha

Thanks for the planning advice Kmc.
I do plan to have a large portion of the background made up of artificial rock/foam disguised as rock and of course some actual stone too. The interior of the cave will hopefully include a lot of real rock to increase the realism. In the shallower cave pool I'm most likely only going to stock snails or small shrimp, since it probably won't be deep enough for fish. The pond area will be deeper and probably house some x-ray tetras, along with more shrimp and snails. I'm glad you mentioned that moving water will help decrease the chances of the toads breeding, since although it would be an interesting experience, I'd rather not end up with a bunch of tadpoles lol.

 

[Kmc]

Let the fbt be your guide to the relevance of water volume. Note the webbed toes and how the orbs of the eyes pretty much pop out from the top of the head, croc style.

40/60 either way per land to water. 50/50 has also worked well. Dont get too attached to any small fauna you may put in there. They like to party and the buffet table is always center stage ( ;

 

[Tihsho]

No, it's not a good idea.

Anoles are solar centric and should not be confined to such close proxy to a temperate and significantly watery environment.

I would have to say it actually depends KMC. I've personally seen Anole's living happily by my pond back home and they happen to bask around it all the time and even cross the water occasionally by jumping in and swimming to the opposing side to either bask at the edge of the pond or move to an overhanging branch. I wouldn't say they are ideal for damp or constantly wet environments, but if they have a place that dries out for most of the day, I don't see the environment being too out of place. My concern would be for the RBT's. The lighting and UVB requirements for Anole's differ greatly than what the RBT's require. The hot spot for an Anole might also bring up the enclosures ambient temps higher than what the RBT's need or are even comfortable in. Not only that Anole's can be down right aggressive at times. Males fighting for dominance is a big concern and their territories are not always small, but I'd be more worried about an Anole seeking a RBT limb as a snack. My experience with Anole's is limited to the ones I kept for a bit as a kid that I caught and ended up re releasing, so someone with more long term experience might have more info on their husbandry.

As someone who enjoys paludariums, I have to say they are hard to stock. Between pictures online and magazine articles that don't exactly follow true husbandry we can easily get side tracked from a pretty display to something that is inadequate to host various species all at once. Keep in mind, the perfect slice of nature we are trying to replicate is encapsulated in a glass box, so the environment doesn't breath as it does in the wild. Keeping amphibians and reptiles in the consumer market enclosures is hard specifically because we can't create the exact environment we see in nature, the glass holds more humidity than said environment does throughout the day and it doesn't allow for a hot spot to not radiate the rest of the heat throughout the rest of the enclosure. The only way to make that work would be a screened enclosure on top of an aquarium, you just have to keep the aquarium's area humid enough.

 

[moonlight]

One of my first experiences in this hobby years ago was an 80 gallon bow front tank with Green tree frogs, firebelly toads and crested geckos. I modified the top with mostly screen and used hand misting to regulate the humidity. After a bit I added in green anoles to get some more action happening in the day time and everyone did great.

Don't let people talk you out of any wild ideas you come up with. No one knows every possible way of safely keeping every pet. do your research on each animal you want to keep. If you can figure out how to create the environments needed by different critters in the same tank, and they aren't likely to eat each other, go for it! just have a backup plan if it doesn't work out.

 

[fishingguy12345]

One of my first experiences in this hobby years ago was an 80 gallon bow front tank with Green tree frogs, firebelly toads and crested geckos. I modified the top with mostly screen and used hand misting to regulate the humidity. After a bit I added in green anoles to get some more action happening in the day time and everyone did great.



Don't let people talk you out of any wild ideas you come up with. No one knows every possible way of safely keeping every pet. do your research on each animal you want to keep. If you can figure out how to create the environments needed by different critters in the same tank, and they aren't likely to eat each other, go for it! just have a backup plan if it doesn't work out.

This is terrible, terrible advice.
Your 80 gallon tank was BARELY enough space to properly care for a small group of crested geckos, let alone all the other animals you decided to cram in there.

OP, please continue to focus on your toads and not add other animals in. You'll be happier in the long run than having animals stressed/dying.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

Don't let people talk you out of any wild ideas you come up with. No one knows every possible way of safely keeping every pet.

True, there are successful husbandry methodologies that we haven't learned yet. We have figured out, though, that cramming four species -- three of them wild caught -- from three continents into a small box is good mostly for transferring pathogens and shortening lifespans through constant stress.

 

[AOA215]

Ok, thanks for clarifying SM and Fishingguy. Moonlight, I truly am thankful for the input, but it seems that in a tank that's only 36x18x24 or so, I wouldn't really be able to keep multiple herp and amhibian species together.

Thanks for the continued input and advice in this thread. As an almost complete newbie I really appreciate the advice!

Edit: I've also been thinking about my design for the setup and I think I'd like to add more water and maybe change up the whole waterfall part. Unfortunately building a waterfall in a cave that then flows into the pond area is quite challenging, at least from what I've researched and learned. I still plan to have one of the hides (probably a cork round) against the glass so I can see the toads in there, but I think I'll save the cave for a different viv (maybe some dart frogs.....). For now, I'm just going to keep redesigning until I find a model I like, and then I'll begin creating a very big shopping list....

 

[Tihsho]

True, there are successful husbandry methodologies that we haven't learned yet. We have figured out, though, that cramming four species -- three of them wild caught -- from three continents into a small box is good mostly for transferring pathogens and shortening lifespans through constant stress.

As much as I agree on not cramming, where was the information posted that 3/4 of these species were wild caught? I've yet to see wild caught crested geckos on the market for a LONG time. FBT's, GTF's, and anoles are CBB on the market too. I know out of all of them that the anoles are most likely the only one that could have been wild caught since they are prolific and collected from all over the place in the US.

 

[fishingguy12345]

As much as I agree on not cramming, where was the information posted that 3/4 of these species were wild caught? I've yet to see wild caught crested geckos on the market for a LONG time. FBT's, GTF's, and anoles are CBB on the market too. I know out of all of them that the anoles are most likely the only one that could have been wild caught since they are prolific and collected from all over the place in the US.

I'm going to assume, (SM correct me if I'm wrong), that it was the comment about it being "years ago" that led to the assumption that the anoles, fire bellied toads and green tree frogs were wild caught.