Should albinos, hybrids, etc. be discouraged?

sorry to revive an old thread, but i was reading this a while ago while searching through for other stuff. i had some thoughts i wanted to express bt didnt know how until i came across this:

http://www.moreliapythons.com/forums/sh ... ight=zebra

I come from teh snake hobby and i think the difference between froggers and snake keepers is quite compelling. snake keepers seem to love hybridization and genetic oddities while froggers seem to stay away from it. As a snake keeper, ive always been fascinated by morphs except for situations like this. in this case, the breeder tried to create leucistic snakes and failed yet hopes ffor luck in teh future.

These snakes were doomed to a short painful life since birth. it is obvious this is not a viable snake to pursue and who knows how many shortlived snakes will be produced before any viable offspring. To me, it is obvious this was never meant to be done and I wouldnt try it, mostly because I would look at the dying animal and as a keeper, i would not be able to suffer the thought of what pain it is going through before it finally dies. To me, it would be like purposely trying to create siamese twins.

wiht that said, im going to restate, im not against all morphs, i think they are quite beautiful as long as i know the animal is healthy and unharmed by the genetic oddity.

just my thoughts.

OK, I think hybrids are cool. Does anyone have any pictures of a neat looking hybrid?

Really... what does it really matter if people produce new/ different looking frogs?

Are they ever going to be reintroduced into the wild? probably not. If so, the zoos and conservationis can supply them.

Are they going to make keeping dart frogs any less enjoyable for the keeper? No...

Will it introduce new interesting color morphs to an already vast and amazing diversity of species? Yes

I've read and understand all the views stated so far and this is how I feel. So bring on the hybrids. I want my azureus to glow in the dark.

Are you really that naive to even ask.

We cannot possibly know where/what each frog is. There are too many hobbyists and too many frogs.

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What??? Are you implying that we can't know what each frog is? I think most of us are knowledgable enough to be able to tell the difference between a luec and tinc. Not that hard. Just cause there are alot of frogs and breeders doesnt mean we cant tell which frog is which. If you cant find a frog you want, ask if its in the trade legally yet, someone will most likely know one way or the other.

You tell me if you don't think (in the wild) a male calling Tinc isn't going to land a female tinc of a different morph. It happens. The same goes for the inside of an aquarium.

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Thats ASSumming that the frogs found a way around all the natural barriers between them.

This is from Patrick Nabors site:

Dendrobates tinctorius ranges over much of north eastern South America. Populations of these frogs seem to occur in “islands” of appropriate habitat, and these populations are often separated by miles from other populations. The terrain that lies between the habitats may appear to be suitable for dart frogs, but in most cases one factor or another prevents the frogs from colonizing these areas. Factors such as seasonal inundation (flooding), rivers and other natural boundaries have kept the frog populations separated for many generations, which has led to each “island” of habitat supporting its own “morph” or color form of these frogs. There is an amazing diversity in the appearance of these frogs, and in some cases the frog populations are physically different, in particular different populations are often of different physical size.

I'm not even gonna talk about the hybrids, but my curiousity lies in people's feelings about the albinos. Not the typical ghost white with red eyes deal, but aren't chocolate leucs a form of albinoism as well? People in this thread have said albinos shouldn't be interbred for that particular trait, yet people spend about twice as much for chocolate leucs as they do for the standard morph, and are told to not interbreed the two. Sure they happen in the wild, but there's no seperate population of chocolate leucs out there, and they certainly aren't specifically breeding with other chocolates. So does this mean when somebody finds an attractive hybrid morph they'll become the next chocolate leuc? Chocolate leucs are pretty similar to hybrids, in the sense that we've created our own color morph population in captivity.

Thoughts?

Just because you isolate a certain trait, doesnt make it a hybrid. That's just another naive statement. The definition of hybrid is a breeding between 2 different species. Just because you breed to isolate a group for smaller spots, doesnt mean that those frogs dont carry genes to have larger spots or no spots or super small spots. But if you keep breeding them together, more of the offspring will become small spotted. But they never all come out the same way. And you could take any of those chocolate luecs and breed it will a normal luec, and you would get a mix of chocolates and normals, or mabye no chocolates at all. The reason people pay more for these types of frogs is because they are more rare to find in the hobby right now. Hense they are more expensive.

I'd say you guys arguing for hybrids need to do more homework before you come on here and run your mouths about how you think is right. Your arguements have hardly stood up to the debate at hand. If you want to change peoples minds about hybrids (which probably wont ever happen) you need to come up with alot better info and evidence to back up and support your idea.

are the color morphs different species? or are they color morphs? If tinc. morphs are all the same species then the definition of hybrid doesn't aply to crossing tincs. and exceptable according to you.

I've never stated and I don't believe I've implied that I'm trying to change peoples minds. I just am trying to see why it's such a big deal to people like you who get so worked up and resort to insults to belittle the other person rather than presenting facts and discussing practical implications and concerns.

Gm_kevin

Chocolate leucs are pretty similar to hybrids, in the sense that we've created our own color morph population in captivity.

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I said...

same thing with no dot citronella tincs, small spot azureus, and any other likable trait that comes up with the "pure blood" species.

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Nuggular aka hot-head

Just because you isolate a certain trait, doesnt make it a hybrid. That's just another naive statement......you guys arguing for hybrids need to do more homework before you come on here and run your mouths about how you think is right. Your arguements have hardly stood up to the debate at hand.

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I'm still waiting for a plausible argument. I've just stated I don't think there's anything wrong with crossing color morphs or even species that leaves you to prove me wrong if you wish or give me your opinion again.

I've read a few of the reasons why not to hybrid dart frogs but since I appear to be naive you may want to expound a bit or give facts not just opinions.
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A horse x a donkey gets you a mule. A mule is not able to reproduce. A hobby with animals filtering in that are impotent will in time have a large impact on the hobby.

Zoos. Zoos keep many different species of animals, many of which are endangered. But, do they cross breed different Monkeys or cats in hopes of better looking animals, or stronger ones? No. They see a moral obligation to preserve these animals. True there are ligers (tiger x lion), but these are thought to be sterile as well. We should take a lesson from the zoos. With that said, some zoos do keep mixed tanks of darts. I have seen some with 3 or 4 different species or morphs. But, these are display animals, and generally any resulting eggs are destroyed. The point is, that while our having these frogs does not stop the destruction of their natural habitat, it does ensure that even if these animals are lost in the wild they can be preserved in captivity. Eventually new blood lines may dry up. What then? As old wild caught breeding stock dies out it will need to be replaced with offspring. If in time there is much pollution in that offspring we may see a loss of species or morphs, and I mean a total loss in the hobby. This might take years, but it could happen. That would just be sad. At least be willing to acknowledge this as a valid point.

I'm still waiting for a plausible argument.

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I gave you plenty of plausible arguements. And you continue down an ignorant path.

If tinc. morphs are all the same species then the definition of hybrid doesn't aply to crossing tincs. and exceptable according to you.

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Did you not read my post above about how tincs cant cross-breed in the wild due to natural barriers and geographical obsticles. Therefore making it wrong to do. There is no reason to create anything new. This hobby is about conserving the naturalness of the frogs and environment. If they dont do it in the wild, dont do it in the hobby. Plain and simple.

I have not insulted you. I said your statements were naive. And they were and still are. You spit crap out of your mouth without even reading posts. The things I just quoted you on are proof of that. I belittled noone. You calling me AKA hot-head is resorting to childish behavior that I will not participate in. I have kept this a debate. You have now taken it to name calling and disrespect.

I have givin you many many facts. Not opinions. And so have many others. But you got it stuck in your head that cross breeding different species is ok. Obviously you didnt come on here and ask about it to open your mind and find some things out. Plenty of info and reliable facts have been given to you and you ignore them. I have yet to see a plausible arguement out of you. Just more belittlement and ignorance.

You're just not worth the arguement anymore. I have stated all the facts. Nothing more needs to be said. Do with the information what you will.

Ok, man...

I'll not try to defend myself or statements I've made for the sake of getting redundant or emotional.

But If you guys are still up for discussion and ready for what seems more practical lets continue down this path.

Alright... Cross species and cross morphs are bad... Very Bad... put that aside. It's not natural and different morphs won't meet in the wild

But... It seems exceptable to selectively breed... isolating a certain trait. It doesn't make it a hybrid but it isn't natural and you will get animals that are not like there wild cousins. In time if you're to breed small spot azures you may get a no spot sky blue frog or no spot citronella tincs. to get more and more yellow and maybe all yellow.

Do you guys see this as acceptable?

Nuggular said:

Just because you isolate a certain trait, doesnt make it a hybrid. That's just another naive statement. The definition of hybrid is a breeding between 2 different species. Just because you breed to isolate a group for smaller spots, doesnt mean that those frogs dont carry genes to have larger spots or no spots or super small spots. But if you keep breeding them together, more of the offspring will become small spotted. But they never all come out the same way. And you could take any of those chocolate luecs and breed it will a normal luec, and you would get a mix of chocolates and normals, or mabye no chocolates at all. The reason people pay more for these types of frogs is because they are more rare to find in the hobby right now. Hense they are more expensive.

I'd say you guys arguing for hybrids need to do more homework before you come on here and run your mouths about how you think is right. Your arguements have hardly stood up to the debate at hand. If you want to change peoples minds about hybrids (which probably wont ever happen) you need to come up with alot better info and evidence to back up and support your idea.

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First of all, I don't appreciate being referred to as "you guys arguing for hybrids", as that's not the case at all. I'm also not "running my mouth about how i think is right." I'm not supporting hybrids in the least.

Nuggular said:

Just because you isolate a certain trait, doesnt make it a hybrid.

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Which is why I said "is like a hybrid" not "is a hybrid".

Nuggular said:

And you could take any of those chocolate luecs and breed it will a normal luec, and you would get a mix of chocolates and normals, or mabye no chocolates at all.

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I understand genetics fully, chocolate leucs are a form of albinoism, and a recessive trait. You're making my point with your statement, that they're of the same lineage, and can and SHOULD be interbred, not split apart because of their phenotypes. What I was getting at, was how people in this thread have been arguing that albinoism should be shunned upon to be selectively bred, yet its becoming the next trend in leucs.

bbrock said:

Regarding the question of whether albinos should be culled. I think the answer is yes and no. Albinism is a rare genetic variant in many species which does occur in nature. However, the occurence of albinism tends to be relatively rare and the animals expressing albinism often have low survivorship. So what to do with albinos that pop up in the hobby? What we SHOULDN'T do is start selectively breeding those frogs to propogate the albino trait. That's what started the corruption of the corn snake and many other good species. Albinism is special because it is rare. What good does it do to artificially make albinos common? All it does is destroy the mystique of a rare animal. Personally I think albinos should be restricted in their genetic contribution to future generations. This could be done by breeding the frog only once and then deciminating the offspring to the far reaches of the hobby. I would not reveal that those offspring may be harboring albino genes because this could lead to a feeding frenzy for clowns who want to produce a pure albino line. I would much rather see the genes float about the captive population at a very rare level to pop up now and then to provide hobbyists with the unexpected thrill of an albino.

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Nuggular said:

I'd say you guys arguing for hybrids need to do more homework before you come on here and run your mouths about how you think is right. Your arguements have hardly stood up to the debate at hand. If you want to change peoples minds about hybrids (which probably wont ever happen) you need to come up with alot better info and evidence to back up and support your idea.

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This isn't insulting someone? What is it then, because it's sure not respecting. I've done plenty of homework, just finished some an hour ago for my class on developmental biology in vertebrates. This is a discussion forum, debates are intended to happen. Read my original post and tell me where I'm running my mouth. I never said anything was right or wrong, simply brought up the subject of chocolate leucs, because in this 8 page thread on albinos it hadn't been discussed yet. Have some respect for fellow board members, whether their opinions are the same as yours or not (which mine are, by the way).


Can I get an answer on the chocolate leucs now?