Shipping placeholder
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I think a general description of:
box types,
double box designs,
frog containers and use of moisture retainers
use of gel pack and other heat/cold sinks,
heat pack safety,
'hold for pickup',
shipping temp parameters and the like would be a good start.
I DONT think we need to get into specific shippers, or content disclosures.
The next time I ship I can take some pics of a 'winter' box set up
box types,
double box designs,
frog containers and use of moisture retainers
use of gel pack and other heat/cold sinks,
heat pack safety,
'hold for pickup',
shipping temp parameters and the like would be a good start.
I DONT think we need to get into specific shippers, or content disclosures.
The next time I ship I can take some pics of a 'winter' box set up
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2,749 Posts
There is always more than one way to skin a cat. I think a more informative sheet would include multiple successful methods. Brian Sexton (dancing frogs) uses a successful method that is fundamentally different from the approach taken by others (SNDF, myself) and then there are others such as Jon Werner who use another variation on the theme. And all of them work. The care sheet should provide all of the info - but I wouldn't say that it needs to endorse one over another.Rain_Frog said:
I don't feel that is a position the board (as an entity) should/needs to take. There are several valid threads on that issue, and individuals should be left to take the path of their choosing.Rain_Frog said:
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[/quote:1oezkt3x]rozdaboff said:
While the board should not chastise people for not declaring their animals in the box, I think it would be wise to state the laws and regulations that are relevant. Remember that government agents do check up on boards like this. :shock: And we should, at least, provide the information and let the indiviuals make an educated decision. Perhaps links to the threads you mention and links to the actual statutes on the web?
Just my $0.02 :wink:
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Rich does have a good point. Surprisingly :shock:
S
S
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342 Posts
:lol:
wait, they're laughing at me....
wait, they're laughing at me....
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3,985 Posts
one thing I'm really curious about is how registered vendors are able to ship live animals. They use the standard UPS, USPS, Fedex, etc.
I think we need to bring Brian Sexton (Dancing Frogs) into this discussion because he's done a lot of testing for shipping materials.
I think we need to bring Brian Sexton (Dancing Frogs) into this discussion because he's done a lot of testing for shipping materials.
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4,548 Posts
Call me bashful, humble, lazy or whatever, but I cant figure where to start, being that there are so many different ways to "skin the cat"
If the old vendor feedback is in the vault somewhere, in my feedback thread, there was a link (from a customer) that had pics of how my boxes used to get packed before I went to phase change material. If a mod or admin has access to that, it may be of use.
Insulation:
For starters, I think most will agree that you need good insulation year round. I won't ship with any styro box less than 1.5" thick.
Probably the most popular is the two piece molded cooler.
I construct my own coolers out of building insulation, building it myself allows me to make the most $ (for most carriers, size = $) effecient shipping box for me...just enough room for the frogs' cups and some PCM
That being said, I for one don't think insulation alone is suffecient, regardless of the outdoor temps. I will note however that I've received plenty of shipments from big name vendors in styro boxes with no buffer that arrived just fine.
I have logs that show a 1.5" cooler going from 81F to 36F in one hour in 6 degree ambient temps. I don't know of anyone that ships in single digits, but it shows that insulation itself is not everything.
Containing the Frogs:
There seem to be two main containers used for containing the frogs within the cooler.
One is a 4 OZ (ish) cup, which can actually contain a good sized frog safely for shipping. I use these for pretty much all but adult tincs or the likes. There is a very well known vendor that has been around a long time that even ships subadult tincs in them.
Others chose to use 4.5" (available in 8-32oz) solo containers, and some will put several thumnail size frogs in a single container like this, which works, but when I receive frogs, they each go into single QT setups, so multiple frogs in one container can be a pain.
In the cup should be some material to retain moisture, to keep the humidity up.
I prefer long fiber spagnum, with most (but not all) of the water squeezed out.
Others use wet paper towels, but there have been reports of frogs getting trapped/suffocated by the paper towel. (a way to get around that would be to shred the paper towel).
I usually only include plants in the cups if someone requests a cutting of something. Some may think the plants provide O2 for the frogs, but in reality, photosynthesis only happens when light is present.
Most choose to punch ventilation holes in the containers, to allow airflow.
I have also received shippments in which no holes were present in th containers, and the frogs arrived fine.
Any holes should be punched/ drilled from the inside out, and afterward check for and trim off any sharp leftovers that could be a hazard to the passenger.
I'll say some about temp control later...
If the old vendor feedback is in the vault somewhere, in my feedback thread, there was a link (from a customer) that had pics of how my boxes used to get packed before I went to phase change material. If a mod or admin has access to that, it may be of use.
Insulation:
For starters, I think most will agree that you need good insulation year round. I won't ship with any styro box less than 1.5" thick.
Probably the most popular is the two piece molded cooler.
I construct my own coolers out of building insulation, building it myself allows me to make the most $ (for most carriers, size = $) effecient shipping box for me...just enough room for the frogs' cups and some PCM
That being said, I for one don't think insulation alone is suffecient, regardless of the outdoor temps. I will note however that I've received plenty of shipments from big name vendors in styro boxes with no buffer that arrived just fine.
I have logs that show a 1.5" cooler going from 81F to 36F in one hour in 6 degree ambient temps. I don't know of anyone that ships in single digits, but it shows that insulation itself is not everything.
Containing the Frogs:
There seem to be two main containers used for containing the frogs within the cooler.
One is a 4 OZ (ish) cup, which can actually contain a good sized frog safely for shipping. I use these for pretty much all but adult tincs or the likes. There is a very well known vendor that has been around a long time that even ships subadult tincs in them.
Others chose to use 4.5" (available in 8-32oz) solo containers, and some will put several thumnail size frogs in a single container like this, which works, but when I receive frogs, they each go into single QT setups, so multiple frogs in one container can be a pain.
In the cup should be some material to retain moisture, to keep the humidity up.
I prefer long fiber spagnum, with most (but not all) of the water squeezed out.
Others use wet paper towels, but there have been reports of frogs getting trapped/suffocated by the paper towel. (a way to get around that would be to shred the paper towel).
I usually only include plants in the cups if someone requests a cutting of something. Some may think the plants provide O2 for the frogs, but in reality, photosynthesis only happens when light is present.
Most choose to punch ventilation holes in the containers, to allow airflow.
I have also received shippments in which no holes were present in th containers, and the frogs arrived fine.
Any holes should be punched/ drilled from the inside out, and afterward check for and trim off any sharp leftovers that could be a hazard to the passenger.
I'll say some about temp control later...
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3,997 Posts
For Fed Ex and UPS you can only ship live animals if you have an account. Fed Ex requires you ship them a box to the main facility for verification? or something before your able to declare live animals. Usps has a different story at each post office. Some will take them some won`t. Some who look up the actual regs say that they can be shipped but only thru ground transport and not thru air service. I took the path of least resistance, ups. although both ups and fed ex only allow live animal shipments thru daily pickup or dropoff at a hub. Ups store and kinkos fed ex will not accept or hold packages marked live animals.
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And fedex only allows business to business shipping of animals.
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They didn`t tell me that. Glad I didn`t go w/ them.
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Fedex is business to business, at least that is my understanding although I havent called the hotline to ask.
I actually got a call today b/c someone was dumb enough to tell the Fedex counter clerk they were picking up the box of frogs I sent them... :? , so the manager calls to tell me the rules :roll:
S
I actually got a call today b/c someone was dumb enough to tell the Fedex counter clerk they were picking up the box of frogs I sent them... :? , so the manager calls to tell me the rules :roll:
S
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13,229 Posts
If we are going to work on a shipping care sheet lets focus on boxing and etc.
I am not sure if shipper policies are worth added to a sheet as they may change frequently and I would hate to be responsible for someone getting in trouble for false data.
I am not sure if shipper policies are worth added to a sheet as they may change frequently and I would hate to be responsible for someone getting in trouble for false data.
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lol, whoops, sorry Kyle. :lol:
I think it does need to be addressed (I think?) that you can get boxes and supplies much cheaper if you have an account with FedEx and UPS.
The last time I shipped some lights to somebody, it costed them $23 for shipping because the box alone was $10. :roll:
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Shipping Care Sheet
Shipping Care Sheet
To ship a frog is not hard and is safe for the frog as long as a few things are met. This care sheet on how to ship, describes one way to ship but there are many function methods that also work. When it comes ti shipping it is best not to cut corners for the sake of the frogs.
How to ship for summer(75-90 degrees) and winter(30-70 degrees). If you have to ship during fall or spring make you best selection based on the temp and pick the one that will suite your needs best.
Things you will need:
Cold packs and heat packs used can be found at super markets. Here is some exp:
![]()
Shipping cups are very easy. You can purchase them from online vendors or even use sauce cups form stores. For smaller frogs sauce cups work well.
While many use moss with success, and the photos below show moss in user it its better to user damp leaves or just a plant cutting. Moss can trap the frogs and even cause death. A plant cutting in a damp container works very well with less risk to the frog.
Different cups sizes, and not you do not want to use too big of a container as it could also hurt the frog:
![]()
Punch a few air holes, any maybe a little smaller than in the pictures. A pin or needle works best:
![]()
![]()
This first box I'm using a store bought cold shipping box for summer shipping. please not shipping in summer or winter you can use either box types. Personally I like to use store bought. its more expensive but work better.
A good source for boxes:
Shipping Boxes and Warehouse packaging supplies from Mr Box Online
Here is an example:
![]()
Cold can be used during summer. Start by taking to room temp (73-75 degrees) cold packs and place 2 on the bottom of the box.
![]()
Next put a piece of cardboard on the 2 packs, and then cold packs all around the walls:
![]()
After that add the frogs:
![]()
Then add some foam peanuts on top and then 1 or 2 more cold packs on top of that:
![]()
Next is to add the top and seal the top on with tap so all the heat or cold stays in:
![]()
Place it in the box, seal it up and make sure the out side is marked fragile, this side up, keep at room temp, perishable.
Winter shipping is almost the same but this time also going to use a self made box.
Take your box and cut the foam to fit its walls. Use 1 1/2 - 2 inch foam. Take another piece and place it on the side wall leaving about half a inch of space. This is were the heat pack will go. use at least a 24 hour heat pack!
This it what it should look like. (notice the heat pack between the two walls):
![]()
Next place a room temp cold pack on the bottom and add the frogs (using a large shipping cup for example) try to use as many cold packs around the frog for insulation as possible. (this makes the box heavier, more expensive by a few dollars, however alot safer for the frogs).
![]()
Put the top on and place the frog in the box, again mark it fragile, perishable, this side up and place the shipping form on top:
![]()
Again this is the way I ship. so far I have not lost any frogs(nock on wood). just make sure its safe for the frogs.
Here is whats not safe for a frog, this box came to me with a DOA:
![]()
As you can see the wall was thick enough, however the inside was done wrong. the shipper used 2 heat pack on both side, this could make the box get to hot. however the heat packs used were only 3 hour heat packs, thats a huge no no for the frog will freeze. the walls between the heat packs were to think, this will make the heat go up and down to fast causing the frog to go into shock, also no gel packs were used. the reason gel packs are used it to hold the temperature in the box. without them the temperature will fluctuate to much and cause shock.
This is a comparison in the size of a good and bad heat pack:
![]()
Ideal shipping method is over night. Shipping either Monday-Wednesday, which allows for any delays which may occur. There have been successful cases of using 2 day service but it adds risk to an already risky and stressful situation.
References:
Contributors:
John (Jungle_John)
Kyle Kopp (kyle1745)
If you would like to see any updates or modifications to this care sheet please let myself or a moderator know.
Last updated 10/16/2008
Shipping Care Sheet
To ship a frog is not hard and is safe for the frog as long as a few things are met. This care sheet on how to ship, describes one way to ship but there are many function methods that also work. When it comes ti shipping it is best not to cut corners for the sake of the frogs.
How to ship for summer(75-90 degrees) and winter(30-70 degrees). If you have to ship during fall or spring make you best selection based on the temp and pick the one that will suite your needs best.
Things you will need:
- A box around 10"x10"x10" larger if need for more frogs. smaller if you can fit everything needed into it.
- A cold shipping box that fits your box, or foam sheets from a hardware store to make your own.
- Gel packs (can be found at super markets for 1$)
- If needed a 24 or 48 hour heat pack (also found at super market in hunter section. sometimes labeled hand warmers)
- Shipping cups
- Long fiber sphagnum moss
- Box packing supplies of course
Cold packs and heat packs used can be found at super markets. Here is some exp:
Shipping cups are very easy. You can purchase them from online vendors or even use sauce cups form stores. For smaller frogs sauce cups work well.
While many use moss with success, and the photos below show moss in user it its better to user damp leaves or just a plant cutting. Moss can trap the frogs and even cause death. A plant cutting in a damp container works very well with less risk to the frog.
Different cups sizes, and not you do not want to use too big of a container as it could also hurt the frog:
Punch a few air holes, any maybe a little smaller than in the pictures. A pin or needle works best:
This first box I'm using a store bought cold shipping box for summer shipping. please not shipping in summer or winter you can use either box types. Personally I like to use store bought. its more expensive but work better.
A good source for boxes:
Shipping Boxes and Warehouse packaging supplies from Mr Box Online
Here is an example:
Cold can be used during summer. Start by taking to room temp (73-75 degrees) cold packs and place 2 on the bottom of the box.
Next put a piece of cardboard on the 2 packs, and then cold packs all around the walls:
After that add the frogs:
Then add some foam peanuts on top and then 1 or 2 more cold packs on top of that:
Next is to add the top and seal the top on with tap so all the heat or cold stays in:
Place it in the box, seal it up and make sure the out side is marked fragile, this side up, keep at room temp, perishable.
Winter shipping is almost the same but this time also going to use a self made box.
Take your box and cut the foam to fit its walls. Use 1 1/2 - 2 inch foam. Take another piece and place it on the side wall leaving about half a inch of space. This is were the heat pack will go. use at least a 24 hour heat pack!
This it what it should look like. (notice the heat pack between the two walls):
Next place a room temp cold pack on the bottom and add the frogs (using a large shipping cup for example) try to use as many cold packs around the frog for insulation as possible. (this makes the box heavier, more expensive by a few dollars, however alot safer for the frogs).
Put the top on and place the frog in the box, again mark it fragile, perishable, this side up and place the shipping form on top:
Again this is the way I ship. so far I have not lost any frogs(nock on wood). just make sure its safe for the frogs.
Here is whats not safe for a frog, this box came to me with a DOA:
As you can see the wall was thick enough, however the inside was done wrong. the shipper used 2 heat pack on both side, this could make the box get to hot. however the heat packs used were only 3 hour heat packs, thats a huge no no for the frog will freeze. the walls between the heat packs were to think, this will make the heat go up and down to fast causing the frog to go into shock, also no gel packs were used. the reason gel packs are used it to hold the temperature in the box. without them the temperature will fluctuate to much and cause shock.
This is a comparison in the size of a good and bad heat pack:
Ideal shipping method is over night. Shipping either Monday-Wednesday, which allows for any delays which may occur. There have been successful cases of using 2 day service but it adds risk to an already risky and stressful situation.
References:
Contributors:
John (Jungle_John)
Kyle Kopp (kyle1745)
If you would like to see any updates or modifications to this care sheet please let myself or a moderator know.
Last updated 10/16/2008
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