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I want to make people aware of my opinion re: selling young obligates especially pumilio [mainly b/c that is what you are going to see anyway]

I see Ads being posted with pums at 2 and 3 mo old. Hell, lots of frogs being sold that young. WHY?

And better question, why would someone buy them?

IMHO, any buyer is taking a big, big chance with young obligates.

Assuming they ship ok, there is often a critical period where pums seem to just die off....

called MOODS, it stands for Mysterious Obligate Offspring Disappearance Syndrome.

More likely then not from cumulative nutritional deficits.

So, IMO I would wait until pumilio were 5-6+ mo old b/f selling.

My 2 cents.

Buyer beware.
 

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I agree I will not sell a froglet until i know it is feeding well and gaining weight. I have many pum froglets I refuse to sell because they are just to young and delicate.
 

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I want to make people aware of my opinion re: selling young obligates especially pumilio [mainly b/c that is what you are going to see anyway]

I see Ads being posted with pums at 2 and 3 mo old. Hell, lots of frogs being sold that young. WHY?

And better question, why would someone buy them?

IMHO, any buyer is taking a big, big chance with young obligates.

Assuming they ship ok, there is often a critical period where pums seem to just die off....

called MOODS, it stands for Mysterious Obligate Offspring Disappearance Syndrome.

More likely then not from cumulative nutritional deficits.

So, IMO I would wait until pumilio were 5-6+ mo old b/f selling.

My 2 cents.

Buyer beware.
Shawn, I couldn't agree more. Somewhere between 4-5 months they really seem to stabilize quite a bit. But 2 months is way too young and like you said, why buy them at that age? But then again, there are some people still selling frogs that boggle my mind. Selling 2 month old frogs is definitely a trend I would like to see change....
 

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I agree Shawn. I've always referred to it as "Four Month Death Syndrome". Thanks for making people aware of that!
 

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Think i had 8 month syndrome on my only yellow belly froglet in 3 yrs. Was doing great until I move it into larger tank then just failed?
 

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Hi, my name is Tom... And I'm an alco- wait, victim of MOODS.

Before I knew any better, I did purchase a few pumilio in the 3-4 month range. After 2 of them inexplicably died on me, I had a very informative conversation with Craig that filled me in on all the details about how buying young pumilio like that is a bad idea.

I think it is definitely a good idea to start an open discussion about this so that other people don't have it happen to them. It not only sucks wasting money on something like that, but it is also just incredibly disappointing having anything die in your care for what seems like no reason. It is also disappointing knowing that some poor practices like this around the hobby are potentially leading to further (potentially unnecessary) importation of WC frogs.

Nowadays when I see people selling young pumilio it frustrates me because I know they are potentially putting their buyer in the same situation I was in. I know when I eventually decide to make the plunge back into pumilio I am going to make sure I heed Craig's advice. I just wish I had gotten it sooner. So, thank you Shawn for making this a public discussion.
 

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The problem I see, is that with a bunch of imports coming in and some less experienced people buying them up and thinking they are going to get rich(It's never going to happen!) that they just don't know any better.I think this is a great thread for that reason and I hope this will teach these guys and potential buyers the importance of waiting until they are older.I will not sell any of mine less than 6 or so months old.Even if they are very healthy shipping them that young is just a recipe for stress disaster.I have gotten some younger (I picked them up )and even though I know what I am doing it is always a risk.
 

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I echo this as well. Young obligates don't seem to handle stress well. Beside monetary issue, it is an awfully feeling when something dies on your hand.
 

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For me Pumilio was always a 3 month frog, if those I sold went down afterward I was never told by the buyer. If a Pum is fat and active usually an experienced hobbyist can tell if a froglet is strong and viable...and there are always those that never really fatten up and stay on the verge of OK, those frogs usually never turn into viable adults and most likely would succumb after the stress of being shipped. I have had plenty of 3 month olds that seemed half grown and were big robust animals, to say wait another month would not be a big deal but to wait 2 - 3 months more would I think create a lot of stress in the tank (for those that keep offspring with parents which I do).
As for thumbs keeping them until they are 4 months old is a bit much unless you are talking Retics. Most fat thumbs at 10 - 12 weeks are durn near bullet proof aside from the aforementioned Retics and some Standard Lamasi/Sirensis. In my experience thumbs at 10 weeks are either strong and viable and fully able to handle the stresses of shipping or if frail at that point it is unlikely they will ever develop into viable adults.
Selling animals at older ages is always a great idea but for those that can't keep 20 offspring for 4 months it becomes which is better scenario, then multiply that times several breeding groups and it really becomes a problem for those that don't have dedicated frog rooms/buildings.
To me it would be far unhealthier to have 25 baby thumbs in a couple of grow out tanks than to be selling them off at 10 - 12 weeks old.
Of course this is just my opnion and there are so many variable outside of the babies themselves. I have had plenty of baby Pums that looked great disappear completely at the 2 week mark...I always figured parent aggression in those cases but who knows.
 

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Not in the experiences of myself and others that I know.

We're talking about obligates pretty much when we are talking about the "boundary". Oophaga.

I'm with Mark - Ranitomeya are ready to go much sooner than that. There is no excuse for 2 or 3 week old froglets being sold - but they do not need to wait as long as Oophaga.

s
I heard it happens to other frogs as well.
 

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Not in the experiences of myself and others that I know.

We're talking about obligates pretty much when we are talking about the "boundary". Oophaga.

I'm with Mark - Ranitomeya are ready to go much sooner than that. There is no excuse for 2 or 3 week old froglets being sold - but they do not need to wait as long as Oophaga.

s
. agreed
 

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I've gotten ranitomeya at 3-4 months and had no problems with them. The Pumilio I got were 3-4 months and the older one survived and did just fine, while the younger two that were closer to 3 months seemed fine and fat and then just wasted away under the same conditions as the 3rd that thrived in.
 

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I think what shawn's concern is (and I agree)is that recently there have been some much less experienced people(several) selling 2 month oow pums and they aren't fat like Mark's frogs.I trust Mark's judgement and several others.As I stated earlier I have acquired younger ones but I only would do that from a few seasoned people that I know.That would also be the only exception to me selling younger pumilio,Again only a few people that I know are able to take care of them properly.I agree with the Ranitomeya,4 months in my opinion is not necessary, but 3-4 weeks is no good.
 

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I will also add this, I know of at least a couple of people that have purchased young adult sexed trio's only to see 2 of the 3 go down in each trio. I think some of this has to do with how the breeder is raising the young, it may be like salt water fish in that perhaps an adult frog can not adapt if it raised a certain way under certain conditions. Being raised in low light for instance and then suddenly put into a brightly lit terarria may be too stressful for even a healthy captive reared adult....too dramatic a change.
Again so many variables are involved, it is safe to err on the side of older is better and in many cases in can be however viable strong froglets should be just that. Now in the case of Carola seeing fat froglets of 3 months going down I am stumped, perhaps they were raised separately and then put together, some unseen stress.
A good rule is feel comfortable with who you are dealing with and hopefully someone that has been around a bit with rarer or more difficult frogs. Most good breeders will take care of issues in one way or another if problems arise, even down the road.
 

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I must add that it is not just the new folks that are selling 2-3 month old pumilio. There is a very big name frog person/business that routinely sells pumilio at 2-3 months. I bought 3 bastis from him. I just assumed the frogs were around 5-6 months old (based on the price). I was very surprised when I got them that the ootw dates on them were 2-3 months. None of them were terribly robust, but looked OK. None of them made it.
 
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