[Peekskillfrogger]

Hey guys... As I continue my acquisition of the various imitator morphs, I have set my sights on the "nominant" form. I have seen alot of variation with this morph and the one that has really caught my eye are the heavier green specimens.

Do you guys think if I was able to find a really green pair that their offspring would carry the trait or are they gonna come out in various shades? What Id like to do is find two unrelated pairs that show alot of green and pair up the most green offspring to hopefully produce a "super green" line of the nominant imi.

Im gonna post in the want to buy forum aswell but Id love yalls feed back and if anyone has any frogs that might fit the bill that youre looking to part with please send me a pm!

Thanks in advance,

Adam

 

[hypostatic]

I think that "selective breeding" is frowned upon on the forums lol

 

[phender]

There is a "German Green" morph of the nominant form of imitator. Their are a couple people who have breeding groups. Also realize that the green is very difficult to capture in pictures and usually looks yellow even though in real life they look very green.
Like stated above, you probably aren't going to get a lot of public support for selective breeding on this forum.

 

[Peekskillfrogger]

I understand that there are issues with breeding different locales or cross breeding, but Ive never heard of anyone having a problem with choosing two particularly attractive members of the same species/locale to accentuate an attribute thats endemic to the species anyway. In no way would i be breeding frogs that shouldnt be breeding. And honestly breeding frogs from the same locale to maintian the attributes of that particular area is the definition of selective breeding, so if people have a problem with it I have no idea why. I wont even get in to the melanistic tarapoto debate...

I dont want to get in to an ethical debate, this isnt a mixing or hybrid thread. I just wanted to know if I bred two green nominant imis if their offspring are going to show the same green coloration or will they have some have some yellow and blue mixed in.

 

[Bonobo]

 

[MrFusion]

I dont want to get in to an ethical debate, this isnt a mixing or hybrid thread. I just wanted to know if I bred two green nominant imis if their offspring are going to show the same green coloration or will they have some have some yellow and blue mixed in.

I've never selectively bred frogs for color, but I have with dwarf shrimp so I assume the basics would work the same. Basically, even if you have a pair of green morphs you aren't much more likely to get only green offspring due to their own past genetics. It takes generation upon generation upon generation just to get shrimp to breed semi true colors so I'm assuming you're looking into years worth of work.

As for the debate of it all... I don't think it's something that should be encouraged, but a lot of people already do this by their preference for purchasing existing morphs that favor certain colors and/or patterns.

 

[ashb]

It's frowned upon because you're reducing the genetic variability of the species if you solely breed for one trait. It's the same concept behind mixing colors of the pumilio cemetery bastimentos locale.

 

[Peekskillfrogger]

It's frowned upon because you're reducing the genetic variability of the species if you solely breed for one trait. It's the same concept behind mixing colors of the pumilio cemetery bastimentos locale.

Considering that many of the species available in the US today (esp ranitomeya) are offspring of a few imported pairs the genetic variability is extremely limited as it is. My plan for this project (which im assuming will take 5-10 years to really bear fruit) is to start with four to six completely unrelated adults let them breed for a year then switch the pairs and then breed the offspring accordingly. If I am able to get good breeding stock to start with the respective generations should have as much if not more genetic variability than most frogs available today.

Ive gotten alot of feedback about this idea, some good some not so good, but im glad that there seems to be an interest in it. What I dont understand is that people seem to have something negative to say about pretty much everything. When I wanted to get some tor linbo tarapoto imis to breed with my stewart/pepper lines I got torn apart because the locality of the tor linbo isnt known even though theyre the same morph/species and breeding them would increase the genetic diversity in the hobby. I dont see any problem with breeding frogs of the same morph/species that come from unknown locales or known diff. locales. These frogs will NEVER be released back in to the wild and if theyre the same morph wth difference does it make?

What am I missing here? it seems like people only want you to breed frogs that come from the same line or same locality, but as long as you are trying to breed the same morph wouldnt you want to mix frogs from diff. gene pools?

 

[poison beauties]

Why take away the natural beauty and replace it with something your clearly looking for as a sales fad? How do you even know in 5-10 yrs there will be a hobby to push your latest work onto? I dont think your ideas on few frogs came in so its no worse to breed for color is flying.

I would like to remind you that new blood is always possible in most cases yet managed blood is what we need here now. You are just taking from that with introducing another selective trait that wont be able to be bred back in to what we have here. YOu seem to be trying to pour gas onto a fire here for some reason, I would like to know who told you that selective breeding is ideal or who even backs your idea for greener frogs,

Again the frogs are not being reintroduced but why are you going out of your way to make them unnatural? Different gene pools are fine when they are related locales containing the same frogs, your way off track here so why not go on and take this project on so we can see you retreat to KS when they dont sell here...........

Michael

 

[Tony]

I understand that there are issues with breeding different locales or cross breeding, but Ive never heard of anyone having a problem with choosing two particularly attractive members of the same species/locale to accentuate an attribute thats endemic to the species anyway.

Do a search for line breeding, or look up discussions on line bred frogs like sky blue azureus and you will find plenty of reading material.

 

[Baltimore Bryan]

I understand that there are issues with breeding different locales or cross breeding, but Ive never heard of anyone having a problem with choosing two particularly attractive members of the same species/locale to accentuate an attribute thats endemic to the species anyway.

I don't think it's so much of a problem to want to pick interesting frogs or unusual patterns, I think most people do that without thinking; but breeding two frogs together for one, specific trait generation after generation just to increase the frequency of that one trait is a different story. Ever heard of no-dot citronellas or sky blue azureus? They are just a few examples of what is sounds like you intend to do... and look how most people in the hobby feel about them now.
Bryan

 

[Ed]

Considering that many of the species available in the US today (esp ranitomeya) are offspring of a few imported pairs the genetic variability is extremely limited as it is. My plan for this project (which im assuming will take 5-10 years to really bear fruit) is to start with four to six completely unrelated adults let them breed for a year then switch the pairs and then breed the offspring accordingly. If I am able to get good breeding stock to start with the respective generations should have as much if not more genetic variability than most frogs available today.

Ive gotten alot of feedback about this idea, some good some not so good, but im glad that there seems to be an interest in it. What I dont understand is that people seem to have something negative to say about pretty much everything. When I wanted to get some tor linbo tarapoto imis to breed with my stewart/pepper lines I got torn apart because the locality of the tor linbo isnt known even though theyre the same morph/species and breeding them would increase the genetic diversity in the hobby. I dont see any problem with breeding frogs of the same morph/species that come from unknown locales or known diff. locales. These frogs will NEVER be released back in to the wild and if theyre the same morph wth difference does it make?

What am I missing here? it seems like people only want you to breed frogs that come from the same line or same locality, but as long as you are trying to breed the same morph wouldnt you want to mix frogs from diff. gene pools?

If people care about the captive population, then they should not be selecting who gets to breed on aesthetics or any other non-random method of choice as this has been well documented as a source of threat to the long-term stability of the captive populations. This can be seen even anecdotally with AKC registered breeds.

Ed

 

[parkanz2]

It's been awhile since genetics, but as long as you bring in a lot of variability, ie not line breeding, it should be fine. Especially if you're only going to use one pair meaning you don't breed their offspring and then their offspring etc. Or offspring to parent, that's bad too.

Like others have said, inbreeding is not good even though it isolates the traits you want. That being said, I think you can emphasize traits responsibly. Most people don't take the responsible route because it takes much longer even though it's better for the frogs.

 

[hypostatic]

It's been awhile since genetics, but as long as you bring in a lot of variability, ie not line breeding, it should be fine. Especially if you're only going to use one pair meaning you don't breed their offspring and then their offspring etc. Or offspring to parent, that's bad too.

Like others have said, inbreeding is not good even though it isolates the traits you want. That being said, I think you can emphasize traits responsibly. Most people don't take the responsible route because it takes much longer even though it's better for the frogs.

Thats a tough call to make. You're still reducing the genetic variability because you're selecting for a specific phenotype. By doing this you select against all possible genotypes that do not result in the desired phenotype, thus reducing the size of your working gene pool. When you consider that the captive population underwent a bottleneck in the beginning (it started with relatively few individuals), you realize that you might end up with individuals that don't have a lot of variation after all.

 

[parkanz2]

Totally agree. But..

If he wants to pick out a frog that catches his eye and pairs it with a frog he already has, he's better than half (arbitrary, assumed amount) the people with breeding frogs out there because a lot of people seem to buy groups of offspring from one person, get two different sexes and end up letting those breed, in effect line breeding. He's essentially creating more diversity even though he's technically selecting for one trait.

Of course, this is assuming that he doesn't continue line breeding the offspring.

And I'm not saying everyone should start doing it, but just saying in this particular case it's probably not really significant. Now... if he sells his babies as "high green" or something, we're going to have problems because we really don't want crap like that coming into this hobby.

 

[Ed]

Selective breeding (which is what is going on in this case) has been shown to cause a bias for certain genes resulting in decreased genetics in the population as well as an accumulation of undesirable genes that are carried along by the chosen phenotype. This is perhaps most readily seen in dogs that have been bred to a standard for any lenght of time.

Ed

 

[GloriaRae]

Again the frogs are not being reintroduced but why are you going out of your way to make them unnatural? Different gene pools are fine when they are related locales containing the same frogs, your way off track here so why not go on and take this project on so we can see you retreat to KS when they dont sell here...........

Michael

Hate to make this my first post to the forum, however, please don't lump all Kansas froggers together. Not all are mixers and/or flippers. New people to the hobby see references like this and assume that all frogs from Kansas suck. Which is not the case at all.

Thanks,
Gloria Rae
Lawrence, KS

 

[curlykid]

he was talking about King Snake. it's a forum, with a particularly large classified section.

EDIT: i edited it, I came off as a bit rude.

 

[GloriaRae]

Boy is my face Red.

Sorry Michael, I've been reading in the TD. My sincere apologies.

I'll go back to lurking now.

Gloria Rae

 

[GloriaRae]

Not at all rude Curly. I appreciate the heads up.

Thanks,
Gloria Rae