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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I used the search button, but there just is not much current info on these guys out there. Are Salt Creek pumilio a form of Basti's or are they different. Also, why are they called green and orange when they are more gray and orange?
 

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Salt Creek pumilio are from Bastimentos Island, but they are a separate population from the frogs commonly referred to as Bastis in the hobby (AKA the Cemetary population). Rich Frye and a few others have posted good info on other forums.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
His origin info on them is pretty non-specific, my guess would be that they are one of the pumilio best managed by import year and phenotype rather than as a locality morph. A similar example would be the "yellow belly" pumilio.
That's one hell of an expensive "managed by import year and phenotype" frog! I thought his were the real deal?
 

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That's one hell of an expensive "managed by import year and phenotype" frog! I thought his were the real deal?
He's had those for a long time and is one of the few sources other then people who have bought from him and bred them so for a long time they were one of the few varieties of pumilio in the hobby before all the imports started coming in the last few years. I think he had those 6 years ago, around the time I got into the hobby. I think that's why they've always been priced high compared to imports over the last few years. If you are pretty much the only source and they don't produce like crazy you can do that :)
 

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That's one hell of an expensive "managed by import year and phenotype" frog! I thought his were the real deal?
I don't know anything more than what he has posted on his page, but lines like "As best I can tell this population of frogs comes from Bastimentos Isle also." and "Synonyms - Salt Creek, San Christobal (I sold these under this name for a few years, as it seemed that they probably originated on this San Christobal Isle.)" lead me to believe that origin info is pretty shaky at best...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
He's had those for a long time and is one of the few sources other then people who have bought from him and bred them so for a long time they were one of the few varieties of pumilio in the hobby before all the imports started coming in the last few years. I think he had those 6 years ago, around the time I got into the hobby. I think that's why they've always been priced high compared to imports over the last few years. If you are pretty much the only source and they don't produce like crazy you can do that :)
That's what I had originally thought...his are one of the only breeder's from the original import. I am already on a wait list from offspring of his Salt Creeks :)

So are they the same size as other basti's or smaller? Why are they called green and orange...
 

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I've found Patrick to be pretty laid back and his care sheets and other written materials are geared more towards the beginner. He's an honest guy and will tell you if he doesn't have good locale information. I've always been happy with the frogs I've gotten from him.

At those prices, though, I would definitely call and ask about where he got them before buying any.

I don't know anything more than what he has posted on his page, but lines like "As best I can tell this population of frogs comes from Bastimentos Isle also." and "Synonyms - Salt Creek, San Christobal (I sold these under this name for a few years, as it seemed that they probably originated on this San Christobal Isle.)" lead me to believe that origin info is pretty shaky at best...
 

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He's an honest guy and will tell you if he doesn't have good locale information.
I didn't mean for it to sound like I though he was dishonest. There are plenty of unknown pumilio out there and they have their place, I just wouldn't want to mix them into known locality lines with their origin info being limited to a best guess.
 

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That's what I had originally thought...his are one of the only breeder's from the original import. I am already on a wait list from offspring of his Salt Creeks :)

So are they the same size as other basti's or smaller? Why are they called green and orange...
I have what I believe is a single Salt Creek male that came in from a Strictly Reptiles shipment this spring mixed in with a group of red Bastis. He is about 20% smaller than the regular Bastis and the coloration is more orange and gray with blueish feet and legs.
 

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I know you didn't mean it that way and you're right about the pumilio locale confusion in the hobby. It's a cluster. My point was that Patrick might have more reliable info than stated on his site and I'd call him before paying over $300 for a froglet.
I didn't mean for it to sound like I though he was dishonest. There are plenty of unknown pumilio out there and they have their place, I just wouldn't want to mix them into known locality lines with their origin info being limited to a best guess.
 

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I believe his summary sheet indicates that they are a bit smaller that other Bastis.
That's what I had originally thought...his are one of the only breeder's from the original import. I am already on a wait list from offspring of his Salt Creeks :)

So are they the same size as other basti's or smaller? Why are they called green and orange...
 

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Are these pumilio offered by Patrick Nabors the Salt Creek morph?

Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Oophaga pumilio “ Orange and Green legged”
Yes these are indeed Salt Creek and were the original ones brought into the US through the Florda Keys in the mid to late 90's. Most people with Salt Creek have origins that started with Saurian frogs as he bought all that came in and had several pairs to start with, their original color were nice red & green and some still turn out that way but many also have the green replaced by gray (who knows if this is a result of captive breeding).
Panamanian frogs were not exported legally back then but several hundred came though one source, who also supplied most of the original Granny's that came in a couple of years later. Salt Creek are a little larger than Escudo's so they are much smaller than standard Basti's and a little smaller than Red Frog Beach Basti's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks for answering my questions Mark. I always thought they were about the size of Escudo but some hobbysists had told me otherwise. Have you ever kept them in the past? I wonder if there is any supplements that would help produce the green legs??? Maybe dust with the spirulina(sp?) some people feed their tads?
 

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Pat gave me a pair a long time ago, I remember they were so nice but they were in an acrylic tank, the top warped and one escaped so I sent the other back to Pat. Red seems to be an easy color to supplement and enhance however i have never heard of anyone doing it with green, that may be an interesting thread topic....
I also e-mailed someone that does some importnig and asked if these to his knowledge have ever come in from Europe and he said he thought they had not. He has some and got them from Todd Kelly and has since passed on to several other froggers, Todd's all came from Pat N so as far as I know Pat is the origin of this morph here in the US. I think the only other possibility would be Rich F's animals but I have never heard of him mentioning these so it is unlikely he has a line involved.
 

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I've said this few times here on dendroboard, but there are no barriers to movement by pumilio on Bastimentos. They are one population.

Regardless, they are lovely frogs.

-Afemoralis
 

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There are not any barriers on Bastimentos that we can see, but quite clearly there is sexual selection going on on different phenotypes across the island. At this point, I would bet that they act as effective barriers between populations. There are undoubtedly hybridization zones on the island, but because of that, I wouldn't personally classify them as one morph. If we look at the Uyama population, for example, there is no effective geographic barrier between that and the Almirante population (there is a ridge between them, but that peaks at 400-500m and pumilio have been found to 700m), so if we define morphs by the presense of geographic barriers, then technically Almirante and Uyama would be one morph.

As for Salt Creek, in my experience, they mostly have grayish legs, but occasionally can get a dull green in color. This is one morph I am a little concerned about because of the amount of deforestation going in the area. When I went there, I could only find a handful of frogs.
 

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There are not any barriers on Bastimentos that we can see, but quite clearly there is sexual selection going on on different phenotypes across the island. At this point, I would bet that they act as effective barriers between populations. There are undoubtedly hybridization zones on the island, but because of that, I wouldn't personally classify them as one morph. If we look at the Uyama population, for example, there is no effective geographic barrier between that and the Almirante population (there is a ridge between them, but that peaks at 400-500m and pumilio have been found to 700m), so if we define morphs by the presense of geographic barriers, then technically Almirante and Uyama would be one morph.

As for Salt Creek, in my experience, they mostly have grayish legs, but occasionally can get a dull green in color. This is one morph I am a little concerned about because of the amount of deforestation going in the area. When I went there, I could only find a handful of frogs.
You could have not necessarily static barriers, but a dynamic group of obstacles consisting of time, distance, population centers, weather, agriculture etc..etc...(Including sexual selection). These would all affect how phenotype clusters would move, spread or insinuate themselves into/influence other phenotype clusters(and how they change). The varibles in the dynamic system (the why) would control the when/where and how fast all this occured and resulted in a new phenotype. Not to mention all these variables could start pushing a cluster towards a new phenotype only to have conditions change where the formation of the new phenotype slows, becomes diluted and even starts reverting back to the original phenotype or shoots off in a new direction.

Something like this fluid visualization below, where for our purposes the square would reflect the Initial phenotype of a population cluster, the dynamic fluid representing the forces/variables/conditions acting on the phenotype of the cluster, and finally the motion of the square representing how the phenotype is effected over a large time scale. The visualization is imperfect though since it doesn't represent the actual change to a new phenotype. At some point the dynamic interplay will result in what might amount to a paradigm shift or in this case enough change that we would call it a new phenotype. Like if the square in the video was finally forced not just into different positions but actually forced to change color as the end result of all those circumstances. So really the video just shows how the underlying genetics change or are expressed in the phenotype of a cluster as it is bounced around all over the place but not the point at which it is bounced around so much, or so far out of place that the result is the underlying genetics change so much that it results in a new color or shape. Sorry best I could find in 5 min of searching youtube ;)


So while you may have one continuous populations with no static physical barriers there will be many variables that influence the flow of genes and thus ultimately phenotype changes in different clusters of the population at different points on a long time line. So one cluster might be turning blue, as another starts turning red, and maybe a portion of each cluster comes together and the underlying genetics of both result in frogs that seem to be in a transition from blue to red or vise versa but all of a sudden the frogs in the combined cluster start exhibiting spots while other frogs in each cluster do not.

In the hobby so far we have many cases where we separate frogs by morphs which are just phenotype differences, yet others where we separate by populations. So I guess we need to come to some kind of consensus where to draw the line. Do we go by phenotype as long as its the same species, or do we go by population as long as it is continuous disregarding major phenotype differences within that population? Or nearly identical phenotypes from separate populations of the same species? Even if a population is continuous it may take a blue frog's genetics on one side of the island years, possibly even centuries to ripple through to populations on the other side of the island and begin effecting a phenotype there. Where do you draw the line in such a dynamic system? It seems even if you different phenotypes within a continuous population to breed you may be artificially forcing that cluster towards a new phenotype not represented currently in that population, especially given that the numbers of captive stock are relatively small. Personally I think we should focus on maintaining the most natural representation of the general underlying genetics within the population, ignoring phenotype. I think this is what we are leaning towards as a hobby too with cases like breeding blue escudo to reds, and red/blue etc.. But are we doing this in all cases? Or are we concentrating on phenotype in some while ignoring the underlying genetics? ...is that so bad? Tough questions.

Anyways, sorry. Apparently this is what happens to my brain when I average 10 episodes of "numbers" a day for over a week. I'm up to season 5! ...and loving it :D (Also its past 7am, and I'm just about to go to bed so that may explain some of it too)
 
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