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Repashy supplements

27K views 104 replies 36 participants last post by  SnorkelWasp 
#1 ·
I picked up the multivitamin and calcium supplement this week. Is anyone using these two exclusively with their darts? I've heard that the multivitamin uses a better source of vitamin a then the repcal brand, but not sure if I should just completely switch over or alternate with them. Any feedback would be appreciated.
 
#4 ·
I'm using the Calcium Plus ICB and have been using it along. The reason it is okay to use this stuff alone is because, unlike supplements such as Reptivite, etc., it has the proper 1:10 ratio of elements (don't remember of what, exactly...retinol to phosphorus, maybe?) for amphibians to metabolize them properly.
 
#5 ·
I was VERY interested in knowing if this could be used alone long-term and it's sounding pretty positive. I successfully used his line of MRPs for my Rhacs with great results so I think I'll pick some of this up and try it out.... I'm not totally off the fence but Repashy's ICB sounds very promising. Thanks for this thread!
 
#9 ·
That mixture of carotenoids should supply carotenoids that affect reds, oranges, yellows and greens.. There are no dietary supplements for blue as that is based only on iridiopores and not xanthopores.

For what it is worth I'm trying to get then to switch over to it at work.

Ed
 
#10 ·
If a supplement says it has a certain ratio of ingredients, it still doesn't guarantee that your animals are getting those contents. Are all the ingredients in the supplement ground up equally to the same particle size? Do some ingredients stick to the flies better than other ingredients which may not stick as well? What is the nutritional/vitamin content of your flies to begin with before you dust them (probably influenced by your media)? Do some vitamins oxidize / degrade faster than others once they are ground up for the supplement mix? Some questions to consider..
 
#14 ·
One of the ways to handle this is to regrind the amount of supplement that you are going to use that time right before use as this will even out the adherence of the particles.

Ed
 
#20 ·
There was an unpublished study by Dr. S. Donoghue (Nutrition chapter both editions of Mader's books as well as developed (the no longer available due to many factors) Walkabout Farms supplements) that demonstrated that fruit flies retain proportionally more supplement than crickets and that if fed heavily a real risk of oversupplementation.. this was one of the reasons we use calcium carbonate at work.

Ed
 
#19 ·
At work with frogs that are fed three times a week or more we rotate calcium carbonate to reduce the risk of oversupplementation of the fat soluble vitamins This was put into place many years ago when Dr. K. Wright was the curator of the department.
If the frpgs are fed less than three times a week then they get the supplement on every feeding.
I do have UVB producing power compacts on the enclosures at work but given the height of the enclosure, with the exception of the treefrogs, I have some significant doubts as to how well it works.

Ed
 
#23 · (Edited)
Hello Everyone,

Someone on my forums informed me of this thread. It is my first time to this board, but from the look of the level of the conversation here, it seems to be a pretty educated group. I have worked quite hard developing the ICB product, and been in the herp field long enough to remember when we were all using primarily bird supplements.... and things like osteo-form... many of the first herp specific supplements, where actually these products being relabeled for herp use.

I believe that the single worst thing to ever happen to the reptile supplementation was what some of us remember as the "Vitamin A" scare from the early 90's. This was an era when herp supplementation was still in it's infancy, and so was herp medicine, nutrition, and anyone who had a little success, knew how to use the new thing called 'The Internet" and a little time on there hands, could influence the masses.

This is exactly what happened when one individual blamed Vitamin A toxicity for some Chameleon problems and proclaimed their epiphany to the world.
A huge scare went through the hobby, and almost overnight, Vitamin A became taboo, and more associated with poison than a Vitamin... In response to this, a certain vitamin manufacturer created a supplement with Beta Carotene as the only "source" of Vitamin A.

It has been proven by much follow up by such organizations as the ARAV, that Vitamin A was not the cause for the original scare, and it was also noticed that there have been nearly zero documented cases of Vitamin A toxicity in reptiles in modern times. (per communication with Dr. Scot Stahl, DVM)

As most of you know here, there is a huge difference between Vitamin A, and Carotenoids. And as someone mentioned in this thread, the use of the term Retinol is most applicable in the description of Vitamin A in its preformed state.

Beta Carotene CAN be converted to Retinol in the body by some animals, but not all, the classic example I use for comparison is true carnivores such as Cats. Because Retinol ONLY comes from animal sources, Cats have completely lost the ability to convert plant carotenoids into retinol. They don't eat plants, so over time, they just lost this ability because they were not eating plant matter. Instead, they assimilate retinol from the animals they consume. This is the single reason that it is impossible to feed Cats on a true vegan diet. Cat's can not live at all without Retinol in their diet, and id doesn't take long for deficiency to occur if fed a diet without Retinol.

Herbivores are at the other end of the scale, and they must produce Retinol from Carotenoids to survive. True herbivores CAN do just fine on a retinol free diet if given enough caroteniods. (which is not easy to do with most commercial diets, or a veggie diet that is not rich in these nutrients. Because herbivores convert carotenoids to retinol, they still have the ability to process dietary retinol, and it is a part of all commercial herbivore diets and supplements I have found outside the herp world. Carotenoids are some of the most unstable nutrients, and due to oxidation, it is difficult to formulate anything but a fresh diet and depend on their availability as precursors to retinol. There are many more benefits that carotenoids contribute, such as pigmentation..... and many other benefits that are just beginning to be studied.. The beta carotene that is used in quality supplements is a micro-encapsulated product that surrounds the carotenoids in a fat soluble shield that acts as a barrier to oxidation.

So where does that leave us when it comes to omnivores? They do seem to have the ability to convert carotenoids to Retinol, but not enough work has been done to compare the efficiency to that of herbivores...... And Insectivores, specifically reptiles..... this is one of the most understudied topics there is..... There is no financial gain to study them like there is in something like a chicken that is a huge agricultural treasure.

Veterinary feedback, as well as the observations of open minded breeders and keepers, is currently questioning the ability and efficiency of true insectivores to convert carotenoids to Retinol. The cases of documented Vitamin A deficiency in insectivorous reptiles are quite common, near the level of Vitamin D deficiency cases. And with there being no downside to including Retinol in a diet or supplement, there is absolutely no reason to try and feed an insectivore a Retinol free diet. There might be some ability to convert carotenoids, but with the documented cases of Retinol toxicity at near zero, why would you eliminate it?

I believe the best approach is to include moderate levels of both retinol and carotenoids. Caroteniods ARE important, but for many reasons other than their ability to be converted to Retinol. Retinol is SAFE as a supplement, and toxicity is more a fear than a reality unless someone is using pure retinol as a supplement in high amounts.

Wow, I just logged in to say hello, and wrote a freaking novel...... anyways, I welcome any feedback or comments, and hope some of my ramblings have made sense to you readers.

Cheers, Allen Repashy

BTW, I am not writing this just to promote my stuff, I am writing it because I do believe that everyone should use a supplement that uses includes Retinol. I don't care if it is my product or not, but do yourself a favor, and if you have trouble with spindly leg, tadpoles that just don't get past a certain size, I believe a lot of these problems can be connected to retinol deficiency. Just don't be afraid of retinol, even in what many herpers consider high amounts..... ALL of these conceptions are based on folklore and misinformation. Listen to your animals, not your critics!
 
#27 ·
Hi Allen,

Some questions and comments.. (I do use your supplement and am working on getting it used at work..)



This is exactly what happened when one individual blamed Vitamin A toxicity for some Chameleon problems and proclaimed their epiphany to the world.
A huge scare went through the hobby, and almost overnight, Vitamin A became taboo, and more associated with poison than a Vitamin... In response to this, a certain vitamin manufacturer created a supplement with Beta Carotene as the only "source" of Vitamin A.
I think this was the tipping point but there was also a lot of problems due to the form of MBD caused by oversupplementating preformed vitamin A which prevent adequate D3 uptake which lent power to that issue.

and it was also noticed that there have been nearly zero documented cases of Vitamin A toxicity in reptiles in modern times. (per communication with Dr. Scot Stahl, DVM)
Allen, there may be few documented cases of toxicity in the course of a normal diet and normal supplementation but there is a lot of data on toxicity of preformed A on reptiles (see for example Mader et al; 2006; Reptile Medicine and Surgery; Saunders, Canada) going back for more than a decade.The lack of toxicity in the course normal oral supplementation may be an artifact due to the lack of readily available supplements containing preformed A and not due to the safety of preformed A. The toxicity problem is also seperate from the issue with artificially caused hypovitaminosis of D3 due to competition between preformed A, D3 and E.


Beta Carotene CAN be converted to Retinol in the body by some animals, but not all, the classic example I use for comparison is true carnivores such as Cats. Because Retinol ONLY comes from animal sources, Cats have completely lost the ability to convert plant carotenoids into retinol. They don't eat plants, so over time, they just lost this ability because they were not eating plant matter. Instead, they assimilate retinol from the animals they consume. This is the single reason that it is impossible to feed Cats on a true vegan diet. Cat's can not live at all without Retinol in their diet, and id doesn't take long for deficiency to occur if fed a diet without Retinol.
At this time, there is some significant doubt on the prior studies about beta carotene conversion in Felids see A Survey of Serum and Dietary Carotenoids in Captive Wild Animals -- Slifka et al. 129 (2): 380 -- Journal of Nutrition as Felids have been shown to accumulate beta carotene and that the prior methods of assay may have missed some ability to convert at least some of the beta carotene to retinol..

Herbivores are at the other end of the scale, and they must produce Retinol from Carotenoids to survive. True herbivores CAN do just fine on a retinol free diet if given enough caroteniods. (which is not easy to do with most commercial diets, or a veggie diet that is not rich in these nutrients. Because herbivores convert carotenoids to retinol, they still have the ability to process dietary retinol, and it is a part of all commercial herbivore diets and supplements I have found outside the herp world.
The preformed A is added to herbivore diets because if the animal becomes deficient in A then the absorbtion of beta carotene is disrupted and the addition of preformed A is an effective method to prevent this issue. I had thought I had read in a publication that deficiencies in A can also interfere with uptake and bioconversion but could not find it and did not want to cite it without supporting data.

The beta carotene that is used in quality supplements is a micro-encapsulated product that surrounds the carotenoids in a fat soluble shield that acts as a barrier to oxidation.
Allen, is there any retention studies done on this to show that this is effective in the reptile supplements or is this claim based on premixed results? The reason I ask this is a prior study done by the AZA Nutritional Advisory Group showed that most supplements were deficient in one or more ingredients including at least one prominently used in the past lacking all preformed A.. (See Crissey; Susan D.; Ward, Ann W.; Maslanka, Mike T.; 2001; Nutrient content of nutritional supplements available for use in captive lizard feeding programs; Proceedings of the American Zoo and Aquarium Association (AZA) Nutrition Advisory Group Fourth Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition).

So where does that leave us when it comes to omnivores? They do seem to have the ability to convert carotenoids to Retinol, but not enough work has been done to compare the efficiency to that of herbivores...... And Insectivores, specifically reptiles..... this is one of the most understudied topics there is..... There is no financial gain to study them like there is in something like a chicken that is a huge agricultural treasure.
There is some significant information out there that shows that anurans can convert beta carotene but may have high tissue demands on it (see http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1275063&blobtype=pdf ) and there is evidence that tadpoles utilize a seperate isomer of preformed vitamin A than do metamorphs and adults (see http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1198203&blobtype=pdf) so supplementing preformed vitamin A may not be the correct path to resolving issues with tadpoles and new metamorphs.

And with there being no downside to including Retinol in a diet or supplement, there is absolutely no reason to try and feed an insectivore a Retinol free diet. There might be some ability to convert carotenoids, but with the documented cases of Retinol toxicity at near zero, why would you eliminate it?
See my comments above on preformed vitamin A and known risk.

I believe the best approach is to include moderate levels of both retinol and carotenoids. Caroteniods ARE important, but for many reasons other than their ability to be converted to Retinol. Retinol is SAFE as a supplement, and toxicity is more a fear than a reality unless someone is using pure retinol as a supplement in high amounts.
Moderate levels are fine but one has to also consider interactions between D3 and preformed A. Also there are differences in absorbtion of carotenoids so what may be appear to be a moderate level in one species may be insufficient in another.


BTW, I am not writing this just to promote my stuff, I am writing it because I do believe that everyone should use a supplement that uses includes Retinol. I don't care if it is my product or not, but do yourself a favor, and if you have trouble with spindly leg, tadpoles that just don't get past a certain size, I believe a lot of these problems can be connected to retinol deficiency. Just don't be afraid of retinol, even in what many herpers consider high amounts..... ALL of these conceptions are based on folklore and misinformation. Listen to your animals, not your critics!
I use you supplement..

Ed
 
#25 ·
Hi Allen and thanks for posting! I started the Calcium plus ICB into my rotation because one of my rarer pairs of pumilio breed like crazy but the eggs always go bad after a couple of days - I also started adding spirulina to my ff medium so hopefully this combo will make some kind of difference - the pumilio (and all my other frogs so far) are obligate egg feeders (the tads only eat eggs provided by the mother) so parental health is probably a huge factor - your stuff hopefully might be a ray of light
 
#26 ·
Thanks Chris,

I use a small amount of natural flavors in a honey carrier. only a couple of % points of the content... a little banana, a little rose, and a little strawberry... I don't think what it smells like really matters much, but do believe that a strong smell of any kind seems to trigger a response in many species..... including those that would never think if eating fruit.. it is just the sensort stimulation that triggers an investigation that I believe makes it attract insectivores and other non fruit eating species. Leopard geckos just love it.... for no natural reason, that's for sure.
 
#29 ·
I'm also now using Repashy calcium plus icb, in rotation with a couple of other supplements and so far am very happy with it. One additional advantage I think it has is not only does it coat the feeder insects better, it also seems (by judging visually) to stay on the insects much, much longer than the other supplements.
-Scott
 
#31 ·
I have a minute here....

Ed, you said "think this was the tipping point but there was also a lot of problems due to the form of MBD caused by oversupplementating preformed vitamin A which prevent adequate D3 uptake which lent power to that issue."

Can you site or forward any information you have on this subject to me please. It sounds like an interesting read and I have not heard this argument before. Are you talking about supplementation way out of the 1/10/100 E/D-3/A ratio that is considered a good balance? I don't know of many legit supplements that go beyond 1/10/200.. I would think you would have to supplement vitamin A in a pure form to do something like this.

I do believe there are many factors, but to me, I think one thing that is possibly overlooked is the ability of calcium to bind the absorption of many nutrients, especially vitamin A. Leopard geckos for example in the past have suffered Vitamin A deficiency even when fed at high levels because they were on a calcium substrate and consumed so much that it blocked Vitamin A absorbtion (as well as D-3 I would imagine. There are a lot of variables that can contribute to assimilation of nutrients, which is what makes diagnosis and formulation so difficult.

All I have time for now....

Rain-Frog....

Good question, I was in a bit of a panic a year ago when the folks at cyanotech told me that I couldn't order product anymore..... I was lucky enough to get a hundred kilos out of them, but alas, I am about out, and it's lifespan limits using it any longer even if I had a large supply. I did have them offer me some non conforming to the human market stuff not long ago, but think I have found a better solution.

I have a friend in the Aquaculture business, whi turned me on to the Naturose originally.... I called him in a panic, and he told me that there was actually a better product out there as far as the fish folks were concerned. Aquaculture uses Astaxanthin to color salmon meat and is the primary user outside the new human market....

Anyways, he turned me on to a product called Ecotone, which is a Phaffia yeast product. It contains about half the astaxanthan as the Naturose, but it is half the price. The interesting thing abot it is that it is in a Non Esterified form, unlike the Algae form which is Naturose. This means the form is more bio available. It also exhibits very good stability, which as we know is very important.

Other than going to the Synthetic form, I think this product is the answer. Krill astaxanthin would be a great product, but it has not been concentrated enough to consider.

Synthetic astaxanthin in my opinion would be a downgrade because it represents a narrow band of carotenoids..... a spike so to speak, where the natural forms contain more of a bell curve of carotenoids..... and whatever else good stuff that might be in there that is just being studied......

I have attached three brochures on Ecotone.......

I have already switched my Gecko Diets to this product and bumped the inclusion ratio by 50%, based on what fish folks have done.which I think should be enough to have similar results. I think the ICB changed in the last batch, so keep an eye on the labels for the changes. SuperPig will change soon also. The powder is near the same color as Naturose, and actually a little finer powder. I think it will be a suitable, if not better product than the Naturose. The fish people say it works fabulous and has reduced costs slightly.... I am sure you guys will have to do your own tests.....

Allen
 
#34 ·
Hi Allen,

Take your time.. I can certainly wait to hear your thoughts on the topic.. I've been pulling together information on amphibian nutrition for more than a twenty years now and am happy to discuss it with someone.. as I'm always looking for more information.


I have a minute here....

Ed, you said "think this was the tipping point but there was also a lot of problems due to the form of MBD caused by oversupplementating preformed vitamin A which prevent adequate D3 uptake which lent power to that issue."

Can you site or forward any information you have on this subject to me please. It sounds like an interesting read and I have not heard this argument before. Are you talking about supplementation way out of the 1/10/100 E/D-3/A ratio that is considered a good balance? I don't know of many legit supplements that go beyond 1/10/200.. I would think you would have to supplement vitamin A in a pure form to do something like this.
If you go back into the literature such as Frye's first edition on reptile medicine and husbandry, there are extensive discussions on this as a causative problem in addition to the problems seen with respect inapproprate phosphorus to calcium ratios.
I am referring to ratios out of the 1:10:100 ratios.. It is possible (in the old days (I am talking about back prior to 1990) if a supplement for example was incorrected formulated, old or exposed to excessive temperatures.. (there are also anecdotal reports on Frognet and Dendroboard of this early symptoms (termors/seizures) of hypovitaminosis of D3 occuring with some retinol containing supplements imported from overseas during the hot months of the year).

I do believe there are many factors, but to me, I think one thing that is possibly overlooked is the ability of calcium to bind the absorption of many nutrients, especially vitamin A. Leopard geckos for example in the past have suffered Vitamin A deficiency even when fed at high levels because they were on a calcium substrate and consumed so much that it blocked Vitamin A absorbtion (as well as D-3 I would imagine. There are a lot of variables that can contribute to assimilation of nutrients, which is what makes diagnosis and formulation so difficult. .
Allen, I am well aware of the interference of excess dietary calcium on micronutrients like zinc and if fed in excess with a high fat diet the issues posed by inhibition of absorbtion of nutrients by calcium soaps (Nutriton chapter in Mader's text for example) but I haven't seen any reference to inhibition of absorbtion of fat soluble vitamins when fed at less than about 3% of the diet (as dry matter).

Ed
 
#33 ·
Trying to cut and paste one of the pdf's:

Pigment Source
Differentiation
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin is distinctly different
from other commercial pigment sources and can be
traced back in the filets of fish fed with this product.
This is important for producers adhering to natural
and/or organic production schemes. Producers can
prove the use of the correct pigment source in the
final product.
ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin, like synthetic
astaxanthin sources, exhibits 100% free, non-esterified
astaxanthin, which is considered advantageous
because it is readily absorbable and must not be
hydrolyzed in the digestive tract of the fish. In contrast
to synthetic astaxanthin, ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin
also consists solely of the optical 3R, 3'R isomer,
an important astaxanthin source in nature. Finally, the
geometrical isomer, all-E, is higher in ADM Ecotone
Phaffia astaxanthin, as compared to synthetic sources.
This contributes to greater efficacy because the all-E
(trans) isomer has greater bioavailability than the
cis isomer.
ADM: Home 217-451-4903 ecotone@admworld.com
AQUACULTURE
SALMONID
ANIMAL
NUTRITION
© 2005 Archer Daniels Midland Company
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin versus other pigments
Optical isomers (%) Geometrical isomers (%)
Derivation 3R, 3'R 3R, 3'S 3S, 3'S all-E cis
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin 100% free 100 —— —— 90 10
Synthetic sources 100% free 25 50 25 65-75 25-30
Algae products Esterified —— —— ~100
Krill products Mainly esterified 70 10 20
The information contained herein is correct as of the date of this document to the best of our knowledge. Any recommendations or suggestions are made without guarantee or representation
as to results and are subject to change without notice. We suggest you evaluate any recommendations and suggestions independently. WE DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES,
WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
Our responsibility for claims arising from any claim for breach of warranty, negligence, or otherwise shall not include consequential, special, or incidental damages, and is limited
to the purchase price of material purchased from us. None of the statements made here shall be construed as a grant, either express or implied, of any license under any patent held by
Archer Daniels Midland Company or other parties. Customers are responsible for obtaining any licenses or other rights that may be necessary to make, use, or sell products containing Archer
Daniels Midland Company ingredients. Ecotone® is a registered trademark of Archer Daniels Midland Company. 86/1205
TECHNICAL DATA
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia
Astaxanthin
For customers around the world, ADM draws on its resources—its people, products, and market
perspective—to help them meet today’s consumer demands and envision tomorrow’s needs.
RESOURCEFUL BY NATURE™
Peisker, 1998.
ADM: Home 217-451-4903 ecotone@admworld.com
AQUACULTURE
SALMONID
ANIMAL
NUTRITION
© 2005 Archer Daniels Midland Company
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin versus other pigments
Optical isomers (%) Geometrical isomers (%)
Derivation 3R, 3'R 3R, 3'S 3S, 3'S all-E cis
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin 100% free 100 —— —— 90 10
Synthetic sources 100% free 25 50 25 65-75 25-30
Algae products Esterified —— —— ~100
Krill products Mainly esterified 70 10 20
Pigment Source
Differentiation
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin is distinctly different
from other commercial pigment sources and can be
traced back in the filets of fish fed with this product.
This is important for producers adhering to natural
and/or organic production schemes. Producers can
prove the use of the correct pigment source in the
final product.
ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin, like synthetic
astaxanthin sources, exhibits 100% free, non-esterified
astaxanthin, which is considered advantageous
because it is readily absorbable and must not be
hydrolyzed in the digestive tract of the fish. In contrast
to synthetic astaxanthin, ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin
also consists solely of the optical 3R, 3'R isomer,
an important astaxanthin source in nature. Finally, the
geometrical isomer, all-E, is higher in ADM Ecotone
Phaffia astaxanthin, as compared to synthetic sources.
This contributes to greater efficacy because the all-E
(trans) isomer has greater bioavailability than the
cis isomer.
The information contained herein is correct as of the date of this document to the best of our knowledge. Any recommendations or suggestions are made without guarantee or representation
as to results and are subject to change without notice. We suggest you evaluate any recommendations and suggestions independently. WE DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES,
WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
Our responsibility for claims arising from any claim for breach of warranty, negligence, or otherwise shall not include consequential, special, or incidental damages, and is limited
to the purchase price of material purchased from us. None of the statements made here shall be construed as a grant, either express or implied, of any license under any patent held by
Archer Daniels Midland Company or other parties. Customers are responsible for obtaining any licenses or other rights that may be necessary to make, use, or sell products containing Archer
Daniels Midland Company ingredients. Ecotone® is a registered trademark of Archer Daniels Midland Company. 86/1205
TECHNICAL DATA
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia
Astaxanthin
For customers around the world, ADM draws on its resources—its people, products, and market
perspective—to help them meet today’s consumer demands and envision tomorrow’s needs.
RESOURCEFUL BY NATURE™
Peisker, 1998.

Stability of ADM Ecotone®
Phaffia Astaxanthin
in Feeds
Because astaxanthin is known to be very sensitive to
oxidization, a comparative study was performed using
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin and synthetic
astaxanthin as pigment sources in salmon feed. Three
supplementation levels were tested: 40, 55, and 70
ppm. All diets were extruded and the pellets subjected
to an accelerated storage test in a laboratory climate
chamber (temperature 27° ±2° C, relative humidity
80% ±5%, open bags).
Astaxanthin recoveries, after extrusion in dried and
oil-coated pellets, were 91-95% for ADM Ecotone
Phaffia astaxanthin and 89-98% for synthetic astaxanthin.
Storage losses occurred over time under the tested
conditions but were not significantly different
between the tested products. The astaxanthin inclusion
level had no effect on process or storage stability.
No significant difference could be determined between
ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin and synthetic astaxanthin
in terms of processing and storage of fish feeds.
Stability of ADM Ecotone®
Phaffia Astaxanthin in
Filets and Processing
Studies in Chile have confirmed that the stability of
astaxanthin from ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin in
frozen filets and smoked, frozen filets does not differ
from synthetic astaxanthin sources. The same holds
true for the water-retaining properties of the filets.
A leading fish processor in the E.U. has confirmed
these results with a large processing trial. In this trial,
the stability of ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin and
synthetic astaxanthin was evaluated at the critical
processing steps, as shown in the below table. At each
critical step, there was no difference between the two
pigment sources.
www.admworld.com 217-451-4903 ecotone@admworld.com
Roche ColourCard® values in a salmon processing plant*
Synthetic astaxanthin ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin
*avg. *avg.
n=10
Sigma
n=30 Sigma
Fileting 14.65 0.47 14.97 0.39
Salt penetration (4h) 14.5* 0.41 14.85** 0.30
Drying 14.75 0.26 15.02 0.31
Smoking 14.8 0.26 15.08 0.27
Packaging 14.9 0.39 14.88 0.31
Full trial data available upon request. **after washing off the salt crust
ECO 02-01
Processing step
AQUACULTURE
SALMONID
ANIMAL
NUTRITION
© 2005 Archer Daniels Midland Company
TRIAL DATA AND STUDIES
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia
Astaxanthin
The information contained herein is correct as of the date of this document to the best of our knowledge. Any recommendations or suggestions are made without guarantee or representation
as to results and are subject to change without notice. We suggest you evaluate any recommendations and suggestions independently. WE DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES,
WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
Our responsibility for claims arising from any claim for breach of warranty, negligence, or otherwise shall not include consequential, special, or incidental damages, and is limited
to the purchase price of material purchased from us. None of the statements made here shall be construed as a grant, either express or implied, of any license under any patent held by
Archer Daniels Midland Company or other parties. Customers are responsible for obtaining any licenses or other rights that may be necessary to make, use, or sell products containing Archer
Daniels Midland Company ingredients. Ecotone® is a registered trademark of Archer Daniels Midland Company. ColourCard® is a registered trademark of Roche. 84/1205
For customers around the world, ADM draws on its resources—its people, products, and market
perspective—to help them meet today’s consumer demands and envision tomorrow’s needs.
RESOURCEFUL BY NATURE™
Roche ColourCard® values in a salmon processing plant*
Synthetic astaxanthin ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin
*avg. *avg.
n=10
Sigma
n=30 Sigma
Fileting 14.65 0.47 14.97 0.39
Salt penetration (4h) 14.5* 0.41 14.85** 0.30
Drying 14.75 0.26 15.02 0.31
Smoking 14.8 0.26 15.08 0.27
Packaging 14.9 0.39 14.88 0.31
Full trial data available upon request. **after washing off the salt crust
ECO 02-01
Processing step
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AQUACULTURE
SALMONID
ANIMAL
NUTRITION
© 2005 Archer Daniels Midland Company
Stability of ADM Ecotone®
Phaffia Astaxanthin
in Feeds
Because astaxanthin is known to be very sensitive to
oxidization, a comparative study was performed using
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin and synthetic
astaxanthin as pigment sources in salmon feed. Three
supplementation levels were tested: 40, 55, and 70
ppm. All diets were extruded and the pellets subjected
to an accelerated storage test in a laboratory climate
chamber (temperature 27° ±2° C, relative humidity
80% ±5%, open bags).
Astaxanthin recoveries, after extrusion in dried and
oil-coated pellets, were 91-95% for ADM Ecotone
Phaffia astaxanthin and 89-98% for synthetic astaxanthin.
Storage losses occurred over time under the tested
conditions but were not significantly different
between the tested products. The astaxanthin inclusion
level had no effect on process or storage stability.
No significant difference could be determined between
ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin and synthetic astaxanthin
in terms of processing and storage of fish feeds.
Stability of ADM Ecotone®
Phaffia Astaxanthin in
Filets and Processing
Studies in Chile have confirmed that the stability of
astaxanthin from ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin in
frozen filets and smoked, frozen filets does not differ
from synthetic astaxanthin sources. The same holds
true for the water-retaining properties of the filets.
A leading fish processor in the E.U. has confirmed
these results with a large processing trial. In this trial,
the stability of ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin and
synthetic astaxanthin was evaluated at the critical
processing steps, as shown in the below table. At each
critical step, there was no difference between the two
pigment sources.
TRIAL DATA AND STUDIES
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia
Astaxanthin
The information contained herein is correct as of the date of this document to the best of our knowledge. Any recommendations or suggestions are made without guarantee or representation
as to results and are subject to change without notice. We suggest you evaluate any recommendations and suggestions independently. WE DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES,
WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
Our responsibility for claims arising from any claim for breach of warranty, negligence, or otherwise shall not include consequential, special, or incidental damages, and is limited
to the purchase price of material purchased from us. None of the statements made here shall be construed as a grant, either express or implied, of any license under any patent held by
Archer Daniels Midland Company or other parties. Customers are responsible for obtaining any licenses or other rights that may be necessary to make, use, or sell products containing Archer
Daniels Midland Company ingredients. Ecotone® is a registered trademark of Archer Daniels Midland Company. ColourCard® is a registered trademark of Roche. 84/1205
For customers around the world, ADM draws on its resources—its people, products, and market
perspective—to help them meet today’s consumer demands and envision tomorrow’s needs.
RESOURCEFUL BY NATURE™
 
#35 ·
I am definitely taking about more than 3% calcium DMB... I dont see a reason to use more than 2% based on my own trials with my Gecko diet as fed exclusively. I started 10 years ago at 2.5% calcium, and am now nearer 1.5% with improvements all the way down ..... Some things to think about also are how different vitamins degrade... in my own results from sending diets to the lab during aging/heat tests.... the form of A I use (there are many 'forms' availble from DSM/Rosche who I use) I have found that the Vitamin A degrades quicker than the D-3 does.... So at least in my experience, your observations/comments are a surprising..... but other forms could be different...

Something else to get you thinking while I am away..... Have you done much studying on the use of Dietary 25-OHD3? :) It is VERY interesting stuff!!!
 
#39 ·
Tangentially on the vitamin D stuff... I'm still working on wrapping my head around all of the carotenoid/retinol/pigmentation pathways.

Some relevent comments below after your other post.

I'm with you on the calcium stuff..

Ed
 
#36 · (Edited)
Ok, I gotta jump in one more time before I fall asleep..... though it isn't easy when I am thinking about subjects like this...... Your example of the case of feedback from the board members on imported products that use retinol which could have been exposed to heat....... my first impression based on my testing would be that the hypovitamintosis of D3 could be due to degredation of the D3 due to heat that is outside the relationship of D3 to A ratios... I don't think you would see degredation of one without the other.... the question is as you point out, what is the final ratio? ..... but equally, if not more important, is the actual final level of one, or both, that could is the culprit.
As a feed formulator, degredation and stability, and how they can be different between vitamins, and even forms of the same vitamin is very frustrating. ......

And how different manufacturers label their product is a whole other story..... Do they use the inclusion ratio.... a ratio tested the day after they make it, six months after they make it...... Basing a product on what it says on the label is like pulling an arm on a slot machine imho..... The only real test is long term use, and educated discussion and feedback.... which I get the feeling is the M.O. here.......

You don't see me jumping in on threads at Kingsnake about stuff like this... I tried a few times, but it ended in total frustration...

What is the most frustrating is the fact that the more I learn, the less I know!

Over
 
#38 ·
Ok, I gotta jump in one more time before I fall asleep..... though it isn't easy when I am thinking about subjects like this...... Your example of the case of feedback from the board members on imported products that use retinol which could have been exposed to heat....... my first impression based on my testing would be that the hypovitamintosis of D3 could be due to degredation of the D3 due to heat that is outside the relationship of D3 to A ratios... I don't think you would see degredation of one without the other.... the question is as you point out, what is the final ratio? ..... but equally, if not more important, is the actual final level of one, or both, that could is the culprit.
As a feed formulator, degredation and stability, and how they can be different between vitamins, and even forms of the same vitamin is very frustrating. ......

With respect to this issue, the premise I have been working off of, is the report in the literature that there is catalyzed oxidation of D3 by A in complete multivitamins mixtures under those conditions which changes the end ratios of A to D3 to below the optimal ratios allowing A to outcompete the D3. (Both degrade but the in the litureature it appears that D3 degrades more quickly than A. (unpublished study referenced in Maders book).


And how different manufacturers label their product is a whole other story..... Do they use the inclusion ratio.... a ratio tested the day after they make it, six months after they make it...... Basing a product on what it says on the label is like pulling an arm on a slot machine imho..... The only real test is long term use, and educated discussion and feedback.... which I get the feeling is the M.O. here.......
According to the Exotic animal nutritionist I deal with at work, her experience is that the common practice is to include the expected ratios of the mix on the label which is as you have noted a problem. This is why analysis post mixing and stability testing of the whole product several months after manufacture is expensive but essential.

You don't see me jumping in on threads at Kingsnake about stuff like this... I tried a few times, but it ended in total frustration...

What is the most frustrating is the fact that the more I learn, the less I know!

Over
This is also why I don't both with Kingsnake forums either.. but the more I search the more I learn... for example I didn't expect to find evidence of different isomer use of preformed A in tadpoles... this would also indicate that carnivorous tadpoles like those of Ceratophrys ssp may utilize both... there are a lot of implications there.

I'm not totally awake but I have to run off to work.
Allen concentrate on the show.. you need to make money to have time to have these discussions with us hobbyists...

Ed
 
#37 ·
Allen, you said that the vitamin A degrades quicker than the vitamin D3 does, and if that is true then the ratio of A to D3 to E will change as the vitamins degrade at different rates. So, how long will the ICB last with the 100:10:1 ratio of A to D3 to E before degradation causes the ratio to change, i.e. if someone wanted to maintain feeding with that ratio how often would they have to purchase a new ICB supplement?
 
#45 · (Edited)
Sorry I was away so long from this board. Things have been a little hectic around here. I just got some new analysis results back from DCPAH that I am pretty happy about. I have been testing different available "Forms" of retinol from DSM. I have been getting premix samples, the storing them in a hot place.... and sending them in over six month increments for analysis to measure degradation.. About a year ago I switched my Retinol "Form" in my formula based on a six month analysis, and I just got back my new 6 and 12 month results and am stoked to see two things..... first, the stability in this form has been excellent compared to other forms. and second, the degradation has pretty much stayed spot on with vitamin D as far as the ratio goes... but more importantly, the vitamin A and D are nearly rock solid at 12 months!

And to top it off, this form has the smallest particle size of all the retinol "Forms" and is what DSM calles their "Water Soluble" form, kind of an oxymoron for a fat soluble vitamin, but they say that for whatever reason, it is the most bio available form. I need to find out more about this. The very small particle size is a really important factor for a dusting product.

I will share some numbers with you here.... I don't really worry about other manufacturers stealing my ideas because none of them really seem to be actively developing product.... and if they do.... it is only good for the animals, and I would rather know that herp nutrition is improving than sell a few more jars of the stuff...

Anyways, here we go.... this is on the stored premix. I am only testing for Retinol and Cholecalciferol activity because these tests aren't cheap. each activity test costs me $136.00.....

Also, note that I am testing only the premix. I tried testing the final products, and got a call from the Lab Boss Dr Tom after I sent my first samples and he said.....something like this: "We are having a really difficult time measuring Retinol in your samples. We have never had a problem like this before. Something is really interfering with our interpretation of the retinol. There is a LOT of stuff in your sample that is making it hard for us to separate pure retinol from other very similar substances to the point we can't accurately tell the difference and accurately give you a result...... Are you adding a lot of caroteniods to your product? " :) I had to laugh, and then proudly tell him all the ingredients I am using.

He asked me if I could send him a sample without the carotenoid rich ingredients, and I told him that it would change the formula by more than 5%..... so I elected to just test the premix...

This means that in some of my products such as my crested gecko diet, the 5% fat content and other ingredients could increase the degradation rate significantly. The stability of the Calcium Plus ICB should be quite good since it has virtually no fat in it........

So as formulated from DSM: the premix I use is labeled as: Vitamin A activity: 4,800,000 iu/kg. Vitamin D Activity: 400,000 iu/kg

My 6 month premix results: Vitamin A activity 4,895,100. vitamin D 418,000
12 month Vitamin A activity 4,828,500 Vitamin D 394,000

So i appears that DSM cheats a bit to make sure their product is good at the end of their advertised shelf life.... but I am very impressed by the results I got back because I kept these premixes in a cargo container... the big kind they put on boats.... a burgundy colored one that sat outside in full sun! for the duration of the test.... temps through the summer got up to 125 degrees inside the container!

The test I did in the past with the other forms showed nearly a 25% degredation of retinol under these conditions..... So while not done scientifically with controls and all that, I think these tests are significant and might be of interest to you guys because not much real world testing is being done like this.

Cheers, Allen
 

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