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Completely possible. Perhaps they are separated by a river. That was the case with Guarumo and Rio Branco wasn't it?

pumilio are always so confusing...
From what I can find on maps on the internet is Rambala is south of Rio Guarumo by about 2 miles....They are both on the same side of the river as well....Who knows....

Trying to wrap your head around pumilio will make you go nuts....truth!
 

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From what I can find on maps on the internet is Rambala is south of Rio Guarumo by about 2 miles....They are both on the same side of the river as well....Who knows....
Any reason to suspect that they aren't a connected population with a zone of intergradation? Pumilio over a wide range are highly polymorphic with local selection and mate choice pressures driving local pattern fixation so it isn't unreasonable to think that you could have varying patterns from opposite ends of a larger connected population.

Some comments

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Any reason to suspect that they aren't a connected population with a zone of intergradation? Pumilio over a wide range are highly polymorphic with local selection and mate choice pressures driving local pattern fixation so it isn't unreasonable to think that you could have varying patterns from opposite ends of a larger connected population.

Some comments

Ed
I'm not disagreeing with you but the 2 morphs look nothing alike and we haven't seen any pictures of frogs that look like an integration between the 2. I think it is much more likely that they both live near Rambala (which we know now) and they are somehow separated from each other. A river, urbanization, agriculture, etc.
 

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Any reason to suspect that they aren't a connected population with a zone of intergradation? Pumilio over a wide range are highly polymorphic with local selection and mate choice pressures driving local pattern fixation so it isn't unreasonable to think that you could have varying patterns from opposite ends of a larger connected population.

Some comments

Ed
I don't doubt it one bit to be honest...Based on the relatively close location of the two frogs respective location of collection I wouldn't doubt the population doesn't or isn't connected some how.

Could it be that there are two groups of collectors that call each frog the other name? Don't know just throwing that out there...
 

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There seems to be sooooo much knowledge on the forums, why is there not a definitive reference guide compiling all known information on all relevent subjects. It would probably be a 20 volume set but I think something is needed. There is a Pumilio morph guide with no real data. Why is there always peanut butter no jelly, kool-aid no sugar. Cant those with the most experience do something for the greater good. I know the field is changing all the time, as other fields do, thats why the DSM 5 is coming out. Im sick of checking every tributary and backwater of the internet searching for info that for all I know is not credible.
 

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I'm not disagreeing with you but the 2 morphs look nothing alike and we haven't seen any pictures of frogs that look like an integration between the 2. I think it is much more likely that they both live near Rambala (which we know now) and they are somehow separated from each other. A river, urbanization, agriculture, etc.
Urbanization, or agriculture is unlikely to have seperated the populations long enough to account for such divergence particularly since pumilio behave like a ruderal species. Claiming that they can't be connected because there is such a large pattern change isn't really acceptable since we already know of at least one polymorphic populations that can range from no spotting to lots of spotting, from red to orange, to yellow to green all in one location......

There also doesn't have to be intergraded patterning.. for example, within timber rattlesnakes you don't get intergraded patterns between canebrakes and northern timbers.... The transition is abrupt and the populations are (were) continous..... So you can't dismiss it so quickly based on pattern alone.

This will probably not be settled until someone puts boots on the ground and does a transect survey....

Some comments

Ed
 

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Could it be that there are two groups of collectors that call each frog the other name? Don't know just throwing that out there...
This is possible and as I noted above, probably not going to be resolved until we get boots on the ground.

Ed
 

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If I can add, I think some of the difficulty here is just that there is no naming convention.
In the case of red Rambala pumilio, they are using the name of a town to identify a population and while there may be a small pocket hidden somewhere, even going back 20 years the frogs did not occur in the town itself, but in the hills to the ESE of town. To the west of Rambala is the Rio Guarumo to the South of Rambala is the town of Guarumo. Historically (and possibly to this day), maybe the yellow frogs occurred fairly close to the town of Rambala. I know that there were populations of a similar looking yellow frog that occurred a fair ways away to the south of Guarumo (and therefore much higher in elevation), so it wouldn't be a stretch that it also occurred a little to the north. As an example, the green Chiriqui Grande pumilio occurs between Chiriqui Grande and Rambala, so using either name would be just as accurate or inaccurate.
I haven't been there looking at pumilios for many, many years and I would guess that the populations are even more fragmented and maybe more confusing now. Anyway, hope this helps a little.

Motydesign, I hope you get there again. It would be interesting to hear what it is like there now.
 
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