I see a lot of good points mentioned between Ed and Michael and a lot missed as well as I know they are more than willing to agree to disagree. I'll be back to this thread once i can post more in detail without distractions (college work, business) .. Michael's intentions are very good and I know Ed's are as well. An ad for Dr.Frye, hardly.. tho why not??
BTW my exotic vet locally doesn't see frogs and refuses, but if your in a pinch and don't want to rely upon the vet techs ( and sometimes i don't, well most of the time unless I'm allowed to see the fecal too as i am also fecaling mammals here with bee pollen diets and roundworm and bee pollen need a trained vet to discern the two IME and even my gutload for my frogs contains bee pollen....( just another example WHY we need them seen by an experienced amphibian vet ) ... and trust me i have met several that do not have the education needed to do the vetting on amphibians of any kind...you can look on the VIN network, but the proof is in the pudding people. It is not as simple as being said. I have seen people put their pets through 6 rounds of dewormers, bleaching cages etc all over a misread fecal... which is WHY we must send out to a lab or to an EXPERIENCED vet. I like to send them out to IDEXX labs in a pinch as any vet will tell you they are amazing, but they are also very expensive. We are talking $70.00 plus vs. $14.00 here.... and with that $14.00 you get a diagnosis too, including the proper meds and dosages. Dr. Frye does also sell other dewormers as I have a slew of them aside from panacur but he will always recommend first trying the one with the least side effects. I know how much spinning down a fecal costs and I know how much Dr.Frye IS NOT making, to ever say there is ever an "ad" for him is silly! He does it out of passion for this hobby folks... Not because he is making any $ as i assure you that is a 100.00 office visit atleast you are bypassing... and have them do it as they do it alllll the time and can accurately diagnose such small fecals as can IDEXX labs... but with IDEXX lets face it, for most unless you are looking for some crazy worm like the deadly Baylis roundworm for humans..... or giardia , the IDEXX lab becomes almost moot. Your still sending out of the office by doing so. Lets face it, does it not already take 1 gram of fecal, technically speaking, to get the most reliable result??? Well in frogs we are not going to get that much, so why not send the fecals to vets with experience?? We are working with turds sometimes the size of this ---->"o". A truly reliable result would be to take several fecals and group it into one from the same viv ( by doing so you may even catch a cyst that you wouldn't always catch since they are shed in cycles, hence the reason why it is prudent to do three consecutive fecals in a 90 day period for QT and do it several weeks apart) .... refrigerate before sending out the day before and send it to someone like Dr.frye or Dr.wright. So the best thing to do if you don't, won't , or choose not to (as I would rather send mine out to Dr.Frye , yup said it again... please don't get that confused with an "ad"), is to have a vet willing to see a frog send out an IDEXX lab fecal.
I will speak forwardly and say without him in the hobby (Dr.Frye) , a lot of us would have been at a standstill and lost a lot of frogs opposed to saving them and have meds on hand for when he prescribes their use... I have a great respect for both vets, Dr.Frye is closer to me which means less transit time, he is very responsive and thorough and professional... as is Dr. Wright but Dr. Wright is way down in AZ, so that is that. Dr. Wright also can not get you the meds you need after diagnosis which makes it kind of silly then to even go there for fecals. He however has a lot of other tests and PCR labs he works with that can be beneficial to the hobby aside from fecals. Why so much disrespect for someone with so much passion that has offered his services not for the $ but for the love of it, is beyond me.... I bet all of our long time members have had frogs diagnosed and saved by him. I wish a little more respect was shown for someone s amazing as he has been to this hobby. The lack of respect truly disgusts me.
If i need a fecal now and i dont want to wait and won't mind paying the much larger cost, i'll send it out to IDEXX, the problem lies however in getting that diagnosis treated and the cost of such a lab. Will Dr. Frye treat an IDEXX fecal report, I would assume so, but I don't want to speak for him out of respect for him. BUT, that IDEXX will take 1-3 days to get the results, then you'll have to pick those records up and get them to Dr.Frye for example causing a lot of time and $ that is unnecessary, it makes it a lot more difficult if he isn't there looking at it. I know at my exotic vets, I read the fecal, then the tech confirms , and THEN the vet confirms. three pairs of eyes to make the final call aka diagnosis.
I love both of you , and its hard when you like two very intelligent/passionate people, but truly different people and I respect them and know them to say what is on their mind. Do I personally believe pinworms in QT should go untreated and in fact aid in digestion for example??? Well i certainly feel pinworms are a parasite for a reason hence why we need anti-parasitic meds to treat, a frog could become stressed with an overload and who is to say unless you fecal daily if there is an overload or not? It is just not feasible. And yes i agree, like a lot of parasites might do... they likely do aid in digestion Ed, but i don't agree to potentially harm either then or in future any amphibian when they can be safely treated and eradicated. Why not treat it before while in QT and get it out of the way?? If they could not be treated, then it'd be a whole different story. There are several relatively safe meds out there people and two mentioned vets that will diagnose and one for sure listed that will also treat these nasties guys. Pinworms or any worm has got to be uncomfortable. It surely doesn't go without treatment for humans not in a 3rd world country here for obvious reasons. Can anyone assure me that a frog with a low count of pinworms in fact is not stressed and uncomfortable from them?? Also lets not get me going on the aspect that they are zoonotic to humans and other animals and are not species specific. QT, fecal , and treat everything needing treating people. I would rather not get frogs in the mail with pinworms, it'll keep me from getting them and my frog and that is just a preference BUT i certainly know its not feasible to not ever get a frog in clean and that is why we should always fecal, quarantine and treat if necessary IMO.
edit: Dr. Frye has diagnosed overloads of protozoa for me in a frog with bloody fecals just for the record. no parasites, just needed some metronidazole and all was good. It was likely a shipping stressor that brought it about to be noticed.
something good for this hobby would be to list all vets in each state willing to diagnose and treat amphibians... not just reptiles or birds etc. Then just add onto this liost as it grows through the years. That way, people can choose someone as experienced as Dr.Frye and Dr.Wright or to take a chance at a vet locally. My best advice has always been to go with those that have been looking at frog feces for a long time and those would be the two i mentioned. I have had to school my zoo vet here many times, it makes me feel like I am paying to diagnose myself which makes the visit moot. I see no issue with sending your fecals out to the nearest of the two vets or whom you feel comfy with. Dr.Wright also requires a fee to become a client whereas Dr.Frye doesn't and is on top of his correspondences with you and questions you may have. There is no harm in suggesting one vet over another. Do I feel either are better educationally speaking or talking as far as Experience? No. I believe them both to know what the heck they are doing. I do believe Dr.Frye may have a much deeper passion for amphibians but without asking both I do not know. I just know how many frogs of mine have been saved, diagnosed, and treated by Dr.Frye. Why is it that mentioning his name we all got to get our panties in a wad?
also why can't one get meds that allow for better targeted dosing? you certainly can with the two mentioned vets. I brought my frog in once to a vet and he weighed the frog and guess who we were chasing that day. the frog! common sense in amphibians is lacking. weigh a container, put frog in, subtract the container's weight and voila! instead said frog was jumping all over god knows what in a vets office. perhaps my vetting is skewed by that incidence but he was a vet consulting with Dr.Wright however extremely inexperienced. Bringing a book and all due respect as that is an amazing book, and I truly mean that, will not educate a vet on amphibians , atleast not on the level this hobby may need IMHO. sorry for any typos, I replied super fast to get it out there.
You know as an outside observer, what I am seeing Michael do is trying to better the hobby by pushing common practice. I may not be up for debate here as I have a ton of studying to do but wnated to add my two cents that I believe we do need more QT and testing and it needs to be pushed rather than giving options out there why a frog shouldn't be treated, by all means if the vet says treat, please treat. I know i would not want to send out any frogs that were never quarantined to begin with and treated if necessary.

I certainly respect Ed very much so as I do Michael and both the vets mentioned and many people. I am more than willing also to be someone that can agree to disagree. happy frogging
