[EDs Fly Meat]

Hey

Not to echo everyone's statements but...What kills me is the 10 year old who buys some only to have them die and then who gets the blame? Sure the vendor (who they never see again) but the hobby as well. There will be those beginners who make an impulsive purchase and pay for it with emotional loss and cash. They will now lump all dart froggers, and breeders into the category of "Scam Artists." I'm not saying that this person is a scam artist, but he is potentially perpetuating a cycle that time and again creates bad pub for the hobby, and the deaths of frogs. There needs to be reguations in place to prevent this.
Dave

 

[EDs Fly Meat]

Good topic

This is a great topic and an interesting debate. I side with Brent on the subject. I am constantly worried that some yahoo gets in the hobby for a buck and does something so stupid that the feds take notice and our hobby is regulated away, so that we'll need permits and licenses for leopard frogs. Extreme? Maybe, but why even risk it?

And we can do something about it. Especially when we have a voice with Dendroboard and other fine bulletin boards, and the power to make choices. I am so glad of all the local groups popping up and I hope more do as well. It is because of these groups that beginners get a good foothold into the hobby without being ripped off. These groups do a great job at having fun, but also at creatining an environment for trading frogs, sharing ideas, and educating one another. Even if that means the non-frogger. That way people can see that we are not the money grubbing monsters that a few people portray us to be. They can have access to frogs without having to risk buying an expensively, thin, parasite loaded animal.

Personally, in my own opinion, I do not by wild caught frogs. Why not? Well. What is wrong with captive bred animals? Mine breed just as quickly and in the same numbers as some wild caught pairs of people I know. I just don't see the need to grab large numbers of animals in the wild, when we have perfectly healthy ones right at home. Show me the data that wild caughts out perform captive bred animals in breeding production? And is that even so important? Even necessary? It is certainly not a requirement for enjoying these animals. I just personally have a problem stealing an animal from the wild and placing it in captivity without a choice or benefit for it. Many disagree with me and thats fine. But I will also agree that we do we need some importation. I say yes, but in limited quantities, to qualified people. There is a benefit in doing so. It satisfies the demand, and creates opportunities for others to enjoy these animals without having to go back again and again to their habitats. Brent mentioned the INIBCO project. I hope that instead of D. mysteriosus being imported (stolen) illegally. It is given the chance to breed for some of our premiere dart frog breeders. There are so many talented people out there who will do good things with these frogs, and in doing so create F1's, F2's and so on so that legal captive bred specimens can be purchased in the US with having to grab more from the wild. It has already happened with D. ventrimaculatus, and many, many others.

But know this, as I mentioned before, we have the power to make large scale imports unsuccessful. Don't buy em, and tell people that you know not to as well. Eliminate the demand for these frogs by educating people through shows, boards, and groups. And believe it or not, I can actually contact my state and federal legislators and they get back to me. Write em, and tell em how you feel. If they are any good at what they do, they will get back to you. Try it, I have and it works. It won't eliminate people from obatining imported frogs completely, no way, but every drop in the bucket counts.
Dave

 

[EDs Fly Meat]

Hi Blake

Hi Blake,

You said, "Why shouldn’t we purchase what we can and get them breeding? By doing this, we are supplying the hobby with a better alternative."

My response to this is that there are just some frogs that DO NOT belong in the hobby. Perhaps due to habitat destruction, or perhaps due to the fragile nature of these aninmals. Some of these animals are threatened species. And some of these animals are not easy to keep and breed. That is why there are no waiting lists for certain frogs. That is why there are no legal species available of certain frogs.

Justin Yeager went to Costa Rica last year and quickly developed a concern for D. granuliferous in the hobby. In the field he noticed that the populations occured in specific locations with a mutitude of factors. Too many factors to replicate in the hobby. They are out there in the hobby, and some people are having success with them but they are no ventrimaculatus. They are a unique animal with specific needs. This can be said of other species as well.

You also said, "I personally believe that it is irresponsible to keep purchasing imported animals without breeding them but I am not going to try to stop someone who just wants to have a nice display."

But my question to you is what is the benefit? A nice display is great, but its the long term consequenses that bother me. If a frog doesn't breed or has a 50:50 chance at making it, then should it be exported for display purposes? No way.

As I mentioned before, I am not totally against importation of species. Qualifiers apply for sure, but it boils down to intent. If the person is out to make a buck and could care less about a frog then I have an issue with that. Plus it always reflects on their history sooner or later. Mike Shrom admits that he has done some importing but his intent was different. True he is a business man but he does not cut corners to save a dollar or two. Go see Mike at IAD and it is all too apparent how much he loves frogs. Here is a guy who takes the time to do right by the frogs, and gets a healthy animal to his customers.

Dave

 

[EDs Fly Meat]

Hi Blake

Hi Blake,

You said, "Why shouldn’t we purchase what we can and get them breeding? By doing this, we are supplying the hobby with a better alternative."

My response to this is that there are just some frogs that DO NOT belong in the hobby. Perhaps due to habitat destruction, or perhaps due to the fragile nature of these aninmals. Some of these animals are threatened species. And some of these animals are not easy to keep and breed. That is why there are no waiting lists for certain frogs. That is why there are no legal species available of certain frogs.

Justin Yeager went to Costa Rica last year and quickly developed a concern for D. granuliferous in the hobby. In the field he noticed that the populations occured in specific locations with a mutitude of factors. Too many factors to replicate in the hobby. They are out there in the hobby, and some people are having success with them but they are no ventrimaculatus. They are a unique animal with specific needs. This can be said of other species as well.

You also said, "I personally believe that it is irresponsible to keep purchasing imported animals without breeding them but I am not going to try to stop someone who just wants to have a nice display."

But my question to you is what is the benefit? A nice display is great, but its the long term consequenses that bother me. If a frog doesn't breed or has a 50:50 chance at making it, then should it be exported for display purposes? No way.

As I mentioned before, I am not totally against importation of species. Qualifiers apply for sure, but it boils down to intent. If the person is out to make a buck and could care less about a frog then I have an issue with that. Plus it always reflects on their history sooner or later. Mike Shrom admits that he has done some importing but his intent was different. True he is a business man but he does not cut corners to save a dollar or two. Go see Mike at IAD and it is all too apparent how much he loves frogs. Here is a guy who takes the time to do right by the frogs, and gets a healthy animal to his customers.

Dave

 

[EDs Fly Meat]

Hi Blake

Hi Blake,

Clearly we are not getting our points across, but I see what you are saying now. After your last post I see that even agree on a few things. But you said:

"Yes granuliferus are in the hobby, I happen to keep them myself. I am currently working on reproducing the factors that you claim are to numerous to replicate in the hobby and if you do your homework you will find people who have bred them on a regular basis.'

Define a reglular basis. I frequent frog shows and speak to a multitude of frog enthusiasts on a weekly basis. I can only think of a handful who have them, and their success is spotty at best. If you can breed them, then good on you. I hope you do and in the numbers needed to eliminate the demand for importing them. But I personally doubt that will happen, and not because of you, because of the natural history of the frog. You find it rewarding to work with some of the harder species and I applaud that. Because you "get it." You understand what the hobby is all about and you enjoy these wonderful animals. My point was not that we shouldn't work with these animals, we should. But again only if it benefits the hobby and the frogs.

I was not saying that if a frog is not as prolific as a vent then why bother. Retic clutches are usually about 2-3. Thats fine. I was saying that if over time a frog prooves to be too difficult to be breed in the hobby then why bother. Some frogs cannot be adapted to captive rearing. As I said before, some frogs DO NOT belong in the hobby. Thank the stars for Dendroboard. Hopefully now we can learn from one another and do some good. But I digress. Saving habitiat is what is going to ultimately save these frogs, not difficult captive rearing. But that is another topic.

I hope I cleared things up, and I meant no disrespect of course.
Dave

 

[EDs Fly Meat]

Wow

I can remember when a pet store I worked at was getting D. histrionicus for less than $15 wholesale and was selling them for $29.99 each or 2 for $40.00. I had set them up in a terraria with plants and hide areas and a couple of ff cultures and we sold all of the ones we could get. The information available at that time, made them as difficult to keep as most "sensitive" frogs, but we had a lower mortality rate on them, then we did for red eyes.
(I can also remember selling E. boulangeri complex frogs for $12.99 or 2 for $19.99).

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Wow


Dave

 

[EDs Fly Meat]

Hi Ed

Hi Ed,

You said, "I would hate to see this become an absolutist point of view as the number of "difficult" species that can be readily kept and reproduced in captivity is always increasing. This is apparent if you look at captive care and reproduction overall, it wasn't too many years ago when animals such as lions and tigers were considered difficult to breed, now the problem is preventing them from breeding. The same pattern has been seen in many other genera and taxa, including frogs. It wasn't that many years ago when cb red eyes were not available, and you had to buy ten to get 5 to survive and cb auratus were a real big deal. Now, both of those species (which were once considered for experts only) are readily available as cb animals."

I agree with you. I made a post earlier regarding intent, and benefit. It think that zoo's have the right intent regarding long term care and proliferation of the species. That's one of the reasons why we have zoos.

Dave