[Guest]

has anyone else seen this yet? http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=14&de=286548.

just seems like it's a disaster waiting to happen and there will be a huge amount of fatalities. I'm hoping the people that do end up ordering these frogs have the facilities, medicine and experience to keep them healthy.

 

[AQUAMAC]

My experience with him was a disaster. I would be VERY careful if anyone is contemplating doing this..although my order was for 5 frogs, the package got lost in transit, the company lost my tracking number. Had a few frogs die. I called a few times about the order but they could not be bothered returning my calls or replacing anything. This is just my experience and a little friendly advice.

-Mike

 

[geckguy]

I personally had a bad experience ordering termites, about two months later they were finally sent and severly undercounted. After seeing his animals at shows I wouldn't order anything from him. It seems like he is in it just to make a quick buck.

 

[snmreptiles]

Definitely seems like he is trying to make a quick buck this time. On previous shipments didn't he actually start to treat them and pair them off and what not? It is kind of sad that he tried to take care of them last time but now he just wants to add new heat packs once he receives them and then ship them off to whoever!

-Shelley

 

[bbrock]

Definitely seems like he is trying to make a quick buck this time. On previous shipments didn't he actually start to treat them and pair them off and what not? It is kind of sad that he tried to take care of them last time but now he just wants to add new heat packs once he receives them and then ship them off to whoever!

-Shelley

I don't have any experience with this vendor and would be leary but I actually think this is the preferred way to distribute animals to hobbyists. The only WC animals I ever bought were BJ pumilio I got through Incredible Pets. All Pete did was hand pick animals on arrival, place them in tanks long enough to observe whether they were eating and attempt to sex as best he could, and then ship them off to the end user. I had my frogs within 72 hours of their leaving Nicaragua. I think this is less stressful to the frogs and I would rather be able to treat them myself than relying on an importer that is juggling hundreds of animals. In my case I had a very large well planted vivarium ready to go and I chose to not treat the animals and just add them to the viv. There were six of them and I had zero losses. I should add that these frogs were housed 20 miles away from my other frogs so disease transmission was not a concern.

In general, I think the present dogma that all frogs should be treated by the importer before shipping them out is wrong. What SHOULD happen is the importers should attempt to NOT sell delicate frogs to people ill-equiped to deal with them (yea, like THAT'S going to happen), and they should try to get the frogs to the end customer as quickly as possible with a minimum of stress. The purchaser should rely on their own expertise and intuition to decide whether and how to treat the animals when they arrive. I just think the longer the frogs spend in a facility containing thousands of animals and getting who knows what kind of hastily administered treatment is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Randy]

I had the same experience w/ a pumilio shipment from Pete as well. The "hand-off" method seems to work the best as far as wc shipments go. Yes, the frogs spend a longer time in transit, but as Brent stated before, importers are dealing with hundreds of frogs at a time, and watching to make sure that every one of them is eating isn't fathomable. Let's not forget to mention the other 1500 or so herps in the facility that require their daily attention as well. I think they're better off in the hands of hobbyists......if that is who they're going to..... :?

 

[Guest]

I have no problem with them going to experienced hobbyists. from what I've heard about seaside, they'd be much better off in their hands anyways. but in lots of 25-100, I think a lot of them will be going to pet stores.

 

[Schism]

Personally I had two decent experiences with that vendor. They were both about 5-6 years ago however. Soon after my purchases through that vendor he had people after him for various allegations of theft and fraud.
One thing you do have to give that vendor credit for is, he has done a pretty good job of photoshoping some veiled chameleons. I feel sorry for whoever ends up ordering lots of those frogs......

 

[bbrock]

I have no problem with them going to experienced hobbyists. from what I've heard about seaside, they'd be much better off in their hands anyways. but in lots of 25-100, I think a lot of them will be going to pet stores.

I didn't catch that part. You're right. These shipments aren't targeted for hobbyists and that sucks.

 

[kyle1745]

Ya really disagree with what they are doing there. If someone wants that many they might as well get them imported themselves. Though there could be a bit of upfront cost as I have no idea what is required.

 

[Randy]

More than likely these pumilio will go to "show hoppers". Those who buy large quantities of animals (that they know nothing about) and take them to shows to sell at a 25-50% markup. I do know of a couple of hobbyists that are going to buy 25 lots of these frogs to start breeding projects. Unfortunately, that will only account for about 50 pumilio out of hundreds of that will be coming in.

 

[Devin Edmonds]

I don't understand why this would be shocking or upsetting to anyone. This is how the reptile and amphibian trade works. The only part that is unique about it this time is that a dealer is publicly advertising what he is selling. Deals like this go on behind our backs all of the time. Yes, I'm sure the dealer is trying to make a quick buck. They are a business and their goal is to make money.

 

[*GREASER*]

It can be hard sometimes to have to face the business side of this hobby. Most of the time im just excited and content that I have new frogs and am able to care for the to the best of my ability. And am able to work with and purchase animals from small breeders/HOBBYISTS. But every so often im taken back by things that I witness and hear about from the business side of this hobby and it gives me a quick reality check.

 

[bbrock]

I don't understand why this would be shocking or upsetting to anyone. This is how the reptile and amphibian trade works. The only part that is unique about it this time is that a dealer is publicly advertising what he is selling. Deals like this go on behind our backs all of the time. Yes, I'm sure the dealer is trying to make a quick buck. They are a business and their goal is to make money.

I don't think anyone finds it shocking because yes, this is how business has been done for a long time. But how could it NOT be upsetting? Hundreds of frogs die for no good reason. I have no problem with people making money from frogs but that does not excuse them for a lack of ethics. There have been importations in the past that were done ethically and responsibly that netted the importer a reasonable profit while trying to insure the best possible chance for survival of the frogs.

So are you suggesting that we just say, "Oh jeez, these guys are just trying to make a living. It's okay that hundreds of frogs will die." I personally think it is good for the hobby to voice our opinions about practices we find unethical. This is the herp equivalent of a puppy mill.

 

[snmreptiles]

This is the herp equivalent of a puppy mill.

It is! I agree with everything that you have said Brent. I do understand how the ship it to the buyer right away method would be better off for the frogs. I never even thought about that. Having worked at a huge reptile wholesaler before I can see how they may not be taken care of fully and where a hobbyist could provide MUCH better circumstances for survival. That is "if" they got into the right hands. I for one know nothing about treating fresh imports and don't have a knowledgeable vet around to help with that issue either. The thing that gets me in this case is that he seemed to really care about the frogs in the first go round. Now he has done a complete 180 with how he is treating the animals. Did he just realize that it took a lot of time and effort to do it right and doesn't want to waste that much this time? I just don't see how you can go from caring so much about the animals health and getting them a good start to just cranking them out...like a "puppy mill". Thanks for clearing some things up, in my head anyway, Brent.

-Shelley

 

[Devin Edmonds]

I don't think anyone finds it shocking because yes, this is how business has been done for a long time. But how could it NOT be upsetting? Hundreds of frogs die for no good reason.

When I skimmed this thread last night I got the impression that people felt angry at this dealer, or even betrayed by Seaside Reptiles, because they were selling pumilio in large quantities when they previously had only publicly sold pumilio in small amounts to hobbyists. It was interesting to me that people would be upset about this because Seaside Reptiles is a reptile dealer and that's how reptile dealers conduct business. It should be upsetting to all of us that money is often put before the welfare of captive amphibians, but I don't think it makes sense to get upset at this particular dealer when they are just doing business in a way that all large dealers do. Sorry for any confusion,

 

[EDs Fly Meat]

Hey

Not to echo everyone's statements but...What kills me is the 10 year old who buys some only to have them die and then who gets the blame? Sure the vendor (who they never see again) but the hobby as well. There will be those beginners who make an impulsive purchase and pay for it with emotional loss and cash. They will now lump all dart froggers, and breeders into the category of "Scam Artists." I'm not saying that this person is a scam artist, but he is potentially perpetuating a cycle that time and again creates bad pub for the hobby, and the deaths of frogs. There needs to be reguations in place to prevent this.
Dave

 

[pa.walt]

my 2 cents....

i was at a show and this dealer had 2 of the red&gray/blue legged pumilios. i asked how long did they have them the guy told they got them in on a thursday and they were being sold on a saturday.
the thing is these animals are for profit and not as pets. so the quicker turnover the better for them. then they don't have to worry about feeding them which cost money.
as for the "lot" shipment doesn't sound good because anyone who would take care of the frogs probably has them already. and as was stated it is catered more for the petshops.
you could always do a group buy. if i had any frogger friends this is something i might consider. the other thing is you don't know for sure when they will be in. like the last time they were being brought into this country.

 

[Dane]

I for one would definitely be interested in participating in a group buy.

 

[bbrock]

Am I hearing this right? After everything that's been said in this thread about this particular vendor and the ethics of this importation that people are actually willing to line up and spend money to support these guys?

Do yourselves a favor, shop around.