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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm just curious what the general concensus is in the hobby right now...

Seems like folks can't wait to grab cheap pums as soon as they hit US soil straight from the importer.

Sure, you can save a few bucks and even flip some extras. If you're lucky and they live or you end up with at least 1 pair.

OR, you could sit tight and let one of the local experts like SNDF bring in a shipment or hand pick the frogs, make a positive ID on them, quarantine them, sex them, and pay a little more for a quality pair of animals.

As I understand it, all the "mancreeks" people talk about coming in are really Almirantes... which can lead to confusion about what is what. I also understand that the cups don't exactly come labeled with which morph is which when they arrive from Panama - so you are relying on a guy that refers to ALL pumilio as "blue jeans" to sort out your animals BY SIGHT ALONE - not by where they were actually collected. Sometimes it's easy to make an ID - sometimes not so much... it helps if you've seen hundreds, even thousands of them, in their natural habitat over the course of a decade when it comes to IDing your morphs. Not too many folk have those kind of credentials...

I guess my questions is this... is it worth the risk to buy the cheap imports, with questionable locale info, questionable sexing, certain parasites, and a hint of mystery surrounds the actual morph that arrives?

Would you rather buy 4 question marks or a 1.1 pair of quarantined, medicated, ID'd, and sexed frogs for roughly the same money?

And how much weight should be given to the words... "I bought them as XXX from Strictly Reptiles...". If the ID is not obvious, should that make them junk frogs? Even if the ID does seem obvious, should that still make them junk frogs?? Yes, they are beautiful and certainly worthy pets in any collection, but should they be sold as anything other then "March 2011 pumilio import"?

ok, pot stirred... thoughts?
 

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For me personally, I would rather wait it out buy the QT treated frogs that eventually get proper ID or what I will prefer to do is buy from someone that has CB frogs with proper linage and information. To me I would rather spend the extra money and know what your getting that is money well spent.
 

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I think on the other forum it was been established that no one can tell conclusively what population the mancreeks are, but that they may be a different species---I remember that it was mentioned they morph out differently. The term 'mancreek' referred to a specific creek called Mancreek that was considerably away from Almirante, if I remember right, but which somehow did not fit where they would likely have been collected, so the name is a misnomer, I think.
Still, lovely frogs.
 

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how is (ex company) ID ing animals any different than everyone else. aren't they all coming from the same exporters? aren't they going simply by sight and by what the exporter/importer says as far as local?

i do think they should be referred to as 2011 imports. however that doesn't make them junk.

i also think there are ppl who will claim these are CB and sell them as such. So unless your dealing with someone you know to be honest...how can you ever really be sure.

i dont think i have an issue as far as where they are from (farmed) as long as the seller is honest about it.

as far as quarantine.. everyone should be doing this for every frog no matter where you buy it IMO. and its not hard to quarantine and treat frogs for parasites.
 

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I am sometimes a impulse frog buyer but I have been better. It has been tempting to get these frogs but I have held off and will wait. I would like to get pumilios going at some point and will get them from a good source.
 

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Based on the imports I got in the last 3 months the quality of the animals has been good but the identification of the morphs has been spotty at best. I think everyone needs to make their own decision based on what their final goals for the animals are.
 

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I personally dont think the ID of animals and the long term success with them in the hobby is any better with the 'expert' you sighted above Jeremy, but....

but your concerns are well taken re: cheap import animals and the abundance of 'flippers' in the US hobby.

Animals seem to be coming in one day, being shipped to another seller the next and resold soon after [sometimes even before they are even available]

Cant be good for the overall success of these animals and I bet only a small percentage are around 12 mo later...

People need to keep these animals with their import date and source [importer rather then reseller] in their records. Otherwise we are going to have a bunch of 'junk' in the hobby with crosses based upon 'site' naming, a couple years down the road when everyone forgets what their animal backgrounds were....

S
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
how is (ex company) ID ing animals any different than everyone else. aren't they all coming from the same exporters? aren't they going simply by sight and by what the exporter/importer says as far as local?
I just have more confidence in a "frog" importer then a "anything that crawls, hops, leaps, slithers, glides, wiggles, swims, flys etc." importer. They all probably come form the same source - I just question the qualification of the folks doing the picking when darts is not their area of expertise. I don't think anyone is capable of making ID 100% of the time - but a dart pro can hand pick and leave the questionable stuff to the flippers.

i also think there are ppl who will claim these are CB and sell them as such. So unless your dealing with someone you know to be honest...how can you ever really be sure.
Sometimes you can tell at a glance, but that really is part of the concern. There are people misrepresenting animals. And that goes back to the gist of my question - is it worth your peace of mind to pay more from a reliable & trusted source with a good history in the hobby?

i dont think i have an issue as far as where they are from (farmed) as long as the seller is honest about it.
absolutely.

as far as quarantine.. everyone should be doing this for every frog no matter where you buy it IMO. and its not hard to quarantine and treat frogs for parasites.
I think this board has proven that most folks don't follow that advice. SHOULD a flipper be expected to take these steps before offering for sale? Some do, some don't - and they all set comparabe prices.
 

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There can be nice animals when they become long term captives and are hand picked....but I agree with Shawn that it's creating cheap animals....

Not to belittle anyone as this is not geared towards anyone specific. I just hate that I list expensive captive bred frogs and the trade offers I get are for imports that haven't even hit quarantine. Will the person trading or selling them cover the frogs if they die during shipment? Yes, I bet they will. Will they cover my entire collection if it dies of a disease brought in by this frog. I doubt it!!!!

Plus value wise. I'm insulted to think someone paid next to nothing for imports that they barely even examined and think i'd trade a captive bred pair that I've been working with and growing for a year.

There are some good things coming from these farmed pumilio, I just think they should be more careful about how they throw them around. I don't understand the big rush.

Lastly, the worst part is having to deal with all the sellers and flippers from kingsnake. All these Florida reptile people seem to be a dime a dozen selling WC animals. They barely know anything about dart frogs but think they can sell them in droves. They're not all that bad but some can barely spell pumilio. I don't have a problem with ugly colors coming in though. Lets not try and think on regular herp hobby terms. Bad colors does NOT mean poor bloodlines...that's just the luck of the draw for that frog and their genetics. It does not mean unhealthy frogs either....it just means that they might not sell as good or they're frogs we don't think appeal visually. These usually end up being sent away anyway and die off with the inexperienced people when pet stores finally get them and the bloodlines never move on as no one takes the time to breed ugly frogs.

Alright I'm rambling...later boys and girls!
Dan
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I personally dont think the ID of animals and the long term success with them in the hobby is any better with the 'expert' you sighted above Jeremy, but....
I see your point, but compared to someone with years of working with pumilio I don't think there is any comparison. I have seen frogs from the importer purchases as bastis, that were almirante. They are getting better, but to them a red frog is a red frog - they don't care. They have a ton of animals to move out and that is a priority... Not ensuring your El Dorados are not really cristobals.


Cant be good for the overall success of these animals and I bet only a small percentage are around 12 mo later...
Bingo. Where have all the bastis gone?? No imports for a year and they have become surprisingly scarce it seems...

People need to keep these animals with their import date and source [importer rather then reseller] in their records. Otherwise we are going to have a bunch of 'junk' in the hobby with crosses based upon 'site' naming, a couple years down the road when everyone forgets what their animal backgrounds were....

S
Agreed.
 

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I have a problem with the labeling of non-site-specific frogs as 'junk'. That means every tinctorious, galactonotus, granuliferous, true blue jeans, histrionicus, sylvaticus, vents and various imitator tribe frogs (outside of UE frogs) and every frog in the hobby prior to about 1995 is junk. Just a thought.
 

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Something else for people to consider is that the frogs are here and we need to deal with that fact... they are part of the hobby whether the hobby likes it or not. Labeling them as junk doesn't solve the issue as it sets up a double standard with many of the frogs already in the hobby (as Robb noted) and that will just increase demand for wc animals that have locality data (or are claimed to have locality data). To meet this demand, more frogs will be imported, probably smuggled.. and added into the hobby.

Now it is always better to deal with a source that is working with a sustainable program but I don't know that we have any proof that this is occuring in Panama (or with most of the other countries in which dendrobatids are found).

I can understand the sentiment that purchasing captive bred is better and that people should not patronize the non-specialist importers or resellers.

Ed
 

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I have a problem with the labeling of non-site-specific frogs as 'junk'. That means every tinctorious, galactonotus, granuliferous, true blue jeans, histrionicus, sylvaticus, vents and various imitator tribe frogs (outside of UE frogs) and every frog in the hobby prior to about 1995 is junk. Just a thought.
Agreed Robb,

My personal use of 'junk' was referring to 'sight' rather then 'site' specific animals eventually being crossed with other stock in the hobby --> leading to junk. Not the original animals themselves, just our poor stewarding.

Ie: look alikes being bred together, and improper names being tossed around.

Do we have Man Creek, or Alimirante, or Blue Jeans in the hobby?? how many have been 'mixed' I wonder? Cristobals??

Various imitators mixed, various ventrimaculatus split based upon leg color, etc etc. We are a mess :)
 

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I have a problem with the labeling of non-site-specific frogs as 'junk'. That means every tinctorious, galactonotus, granuliferous, true blue jeans, histrionicus, sylvaticus, vents and various imitator tribe frogs (outside of UE frogs) and every frog in the hobby prior to about 1995 is junk. Just a thought.
Actually make that 2005 not 1995...
 

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Agreed Robb,

My personal use of 'junk' was referring to 'sight' rather then 'site' specific animals eventually being crossed with other stock in the hobby --> leading to junk. Not the original animals themselves, just our poor stewarding.

Ie: look alikes being bred together, and improper names being tossed around.

Do we have Man Creek, or Alimirante, or Blue Jeans in the hobby?? how many have been 'mixed' I wonder? Cristobals??

Various imitators mixed, various ventrimaculatus split based upon leg color, etc etc. We are a mess :)
I understand your point, and wasn't specifically referring to your use of the word 'junk' rather many others who have labeled non-site-specific animals as inferior or 'junk/trash' frogs.
 

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I just have more confidence in a "frog" importer then a "anything that crawls, hops, leaps, slithers, glides, wiggles, swims, flys etc." importer. They all probably come form the same source - I just question the qualification of the folks doing the picking when darts is not their area of expertise. I don't think anyone is capable of making ID 100% of the time - but a dart pro can hand pick and leave the questionable stuff to the flippers.
I know for a fact that well respected frogger (and board member) sorted and labeled the last shipment for them and help show them the differences.

Sometimes you can tell at a glance, but that really is part of the concern. There are people misrepresenting animals. And that goes back to the gist of my question - is it worth your peace of mind to pay more from a reliable & trusted source with a good history in the hobby?
I think this board has proven that most folks don't follow that advice. SHOULD a flipper be expected to take these steps before offering for sale? Some do, some don't - and they all set comparabe prices.
I have seen more issues of this on this board of mislabel or quick scams than I have in all my years here. I purchased 6 last shipment, received two for sure pairs and sold the other two (mancreek). I treat them all, and the local frogger who purchased them is happy with his purchase. I complete a 30 day quarantine and treat the animals, I do this with all incoming animals, it is not worth the risk.

I see your point, but compared to someone with years of working with pumilio I don't think there is any comparison. I have seen frogs from the importer purchases as bastis, that were almirante. They are getting better, but to them a red frog is a red frog - they don't care. They have a ton of animals to move out and that is a priority... Not ensuring your El Dorados are not really cristobals.
I have experienced this first hand, however I could tell what they were when they arrived. I am not a jobber but a hobbyist, I see this more of an issue for non-connected to the community new hobbyist. Importers do want to make money, but they are getting the feeling that they need information to serve a customer base, and a returning customer base.

Bingo. Where have all the bastis gone?? No imports for a year and they have become surprisingly scarce it seems...
Basti’s have been on more than one price list over the last 6 months. There was a shipment four weeks ago that had them, and I have a 1.1 from that shipment handpicked by the trusted frogger. How about the earlier “site specific” imports? Where are those frogs, F1, F2?

I have a problem with the labeling of non-site-specific frogs as 'junk'. That means every tinctorious, galactonotus, granuliferous, true blue jeans, histrionicus, sylvaticus, vents and various imitator tribe frogs (outside of UE frogs) and every frog in the hobby prior to about 1995 is junk. Just a thought.
I think some are becoming snobs of locale specific frogs. I had those feelings until I thought about you perspective Rob. There are lot of good founding frogs. The importer cited are all getting their frogs from the same exporter as many other importers. My feeling have been they are here, let’s not destine them for death but give them a good chance at getting established.
 

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^ right

Ive got plenty of those in my collection. They aint junk to me ;)

But keeping them labeled correctly over time is going to be the challenge of the hobby.

I heard BTW 300 pumilio [permit allowed 500] came into FLA this past week. Some went overseas, and a large portion were sold here.

S
Sound about right on the import numbers.

My snob comment are more about the hate email I have received concerning selling WC and the "Odd ball Cobalt" frogs from anonymous emails. There were and are numinous.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Agreed Robb,

My personal use of 'junk' was referring to 'sight' rather then 'site' specific animals eventually being crossed with other stock in the hobby --> leading to junk. Not the original animals themselves, just our poor stewarding.

Ie: look alikes being bred together, and improper names being tossed around.

Do we have Man Creek, or Alimirante, or Blue Jeans in the hobby?? how many have been 'mixed' I wonder? Cristobals??

Various imitators mixed, various ventrimaculatus split based upon leg color, etc etc. We are a mess :)
Yes, sorry, this was the context of the word "junk" for my original post. The Man Creek/Almirante/BJ example is exactly my concern. Not all importers are up on proper nomenclature. I have seen El Dorados that could pass for Bri Bri, I have seen Cristobals that could pass for El Dorados and so on. None of them are bad frogs - and "junk" is probably the wrong word to use... but when you buy direct from a huge importer you are just getting a best guess as to what morph they actually ship. They might be right 90% of the time - but what about that 10%? They are here and they should be enjoyed - as long as they are not given a best guess eyeball ID.

I'm not suggesting there is anything we can do about it - I don't even have a problem with people buying the cheap frogs, getting a pair or two for themself and selling off the rest to help offset the initial investment. Nothing wrong with that at all - and it's not their fault that the frogs they purchase may or may not be mis-identified.

I just have concerns about that whole system of distribution and I was wondering what percentage of the hobby was still willing to spend more for frogs from a reputable source.
 
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