[Randy]

I'm at work as I type this, so I can't upload any pics. I'll see what pics I can dig up to give a good comparison. The difference in size is remarkable, literally twice the size of the other group. I received the smaller morphs from Pete at incrediblepets. He isn't importing pumilio anymore, unless he's changed his mind in the past two weeks. The green pumilio that I received from Pete are also very different from the "bruno's" that I've received from other importers.

 

[Guest]

I realize that this is extremely frustrating to those who hold themselves responsible for keeping the morphs straight in the hobby. But how is it absolutely impossible that frogs from locales other than what was mentioned made their way onto the farm?

And I also have spoken with a few dealers that may not be importing any more due to the recent high mortality rate.

 

[rmelancon]

Yes, please post pictures.

 

[EverettC]

I don't want to throw a wrench into anything but do we know FOR SURE that the same person/people collected these certain frogs at the same time at the same location(s)? If this is not the case then it is entirely possible that we have a mix of almirante/man creek. One thing that I notice that is odd is some of the pumilio have fairly granulated backs while others are smooth, and it reoccurs too much to just be a coincidence. Although my thoughts could just be random but I thought I'd bring it up since nobody else has. I can't say anything for the Chiriqui because I don't have any, but we all know how different the pumilio color morphs of the same locality can be.

 

[Randy]

These are pretty poor comparison shots, but I guess they'll have to suffice since they are the only ones I have at the moment. The first pic is of a proven female from the smaller-sized group. All of these frogs tend to have black spots running up the backs, eventually fading to an even red, and then returning to a more subdued red. White mottling is present on the undersides of all of these frogs.


The second pic is of a proven female of the larger-sized group. These frogs exhibit a much more uniform dorsal coloration and no white mottling occurs on the ventral sides. All of these individuals lack any black spotting. The difference in size is comparable to that of a French Guiana tinctorius to a Surinam Cobalt.....a huge difference.


Both groups are sexually mature (obviously, since they've been successfully bred). Because of this coupled with the huge differences in size and coloration patterns, I'm inclined to say that they are different morphs.

As far as the farms are concerned, I believe that these are practically just holding facilities until the frogs are ready to be shipped off. Yes, there may be some breeding going on and the project may be legitimate to a point, but the sheer numbers and diversity of the pumilio that are coming in suggests to me that these frogs probably don't originate from the same locales. Thus, I don't believe that we can say that all of the frogs that have red backs and blue legs are from wherever. I wish we could, it would make identification a heck of alot easier.

 

[steelcube]

Hi Randy,

Would it be possible that the smaller ones are actually original frogs that were collected directly from the wild that the farmer bred to build their number?

It would be interesting to see if the offsprings from the smaller ones grow larger than the parents... ie: approaching the size of the big ones.

I've seen the difference what nutritious food, can make. I have seen small tumbnails produce huge (adult) offsprings.

The first picture also looks like a frog collected from the wild. It has that "rough" look and brighter color. The second looks like a CB frog...

Steven

 

[Guest]

the only problem that I see with that theory (and randy will have to correct me if I'm wrong about this) is that the froglets that he posted in the classified section look like they were bred by the smaller, black spotted morph of "almirantes". If you go check they look like an exact replica of the first frog.

 

[rmelancon]

I have one with black spotting and a mottled underside that is the same size as all the rest of my group.

I also have individuals that are almost solid orange with just small tan patches on the legs. I have heard there are individuals selling these solid oranges (I have seen ones with almost no leg coloration) as Cayo Nancy.

We can doubt the exporters and the farm all we want. We will never be 100% sure of any of this. If we want to claim morphs based on slight color and size differences we've got probably 6 different morphs of these and 7 or 8 of the Chiriquis. You may be right, maybe you have a mini morph of almirante or man creek. Maybe other people that have these 1/2 size frogs will come forward. All of my frogs and all the frogs that I have seen come in from that farm look to be variations of the same frog.

If you get better comparison pictures please post them.

 

[rmelancon]

I realize that this is extremely frustrating to those who hold themselves responsible for keeping the morphs straight in the hobby...

BTW - I don't hold myself responsible and I hope nobody else is holding me responsible. The only thing we are 100% sure of is that they are Dendrobates pumilio. The rest is a best guess based on the information we have been provided.

 

[Guest]

I think it's just natural variation. They are definitely not Cayo Nancy. I have some pictures somewhere of those forms when I was there, and they are significantly different.
j

 

[rmelancon]

That's my point, even though these look different, they are the same frog. And they are definitely not Cayo Nancy.

 

[Marcus]

so what is this?

also "Almirante", copyrights T. Ostrowski

@ Lydia,
As far as i know the 'bruno' are max 15mm in size while the "Chriqui Grande" and "Almirante" are bigger. I have seen the cg/al in real and they are larger/bigger then 15 mm. With bigger i mean rounder.
Look at the bruno pics..these animals are not very round.

 

[Guest]

I just hope they don't get broke down into different "morphs" for their various appearance.
Mark W.

 

[rmelancon]

Exactly, without location information you wouldn't know what that frog was. The only reason I am saying the imports are not Almirante is because we were told the founding stock was collected on the road to Chiriqui Grande which is 40-50 miles southeast of Almirante. There are tons of variable red with blueish legged pumilio, so all we have to go on is location. You obviously cannot base a morph solely on looks.

 

[TimStout]

Dont know if this was proposed or not but can a shared data base of pics of these imports be setup for all to see. Keeping each import separated by date and vendor purchased from etc. could be extremely helpful. I can't imagine pics of all animals would go here but representatives of the norm to the extreme would be great.
Just a thought.

 

[Randy]

Coloration is an extremely variable trait in darts, BUT size of adults is not. Rob, do the frogs in your collection vary this much as adults? As mentioned before, a Frenchy compared to a Cobalt is huge. I don't house the smaller individuals with the larger, hence I have no side-by-side pics. You're right, Rob, you can't base a frog's identification solely on looks alone. But you also can't expect to trust an importer's interpretation of where so-and-so was collected either. These frogs are wc, plain and simple. This means there are no boundaries from which they could have been collected. Our best identification tools are the ones in which we decifer what characteristics separate different morphs. We can get a good idea of where the frogs originate, but that location must be taken with a grain of salt, since the animals could have been collected 50 miles downstream.

If we're not careful, we're going to start blending lines in the hobby and we'll end up with mutts. Pumilio, yes. But mutts all the same. There's a fine line between what is variation, and what is a significant morphological trait. We need to keep a keen eye out for these differences.

On another note, Kinetic is exactly right, the froglets I posted in the classified section are F1's from the smaller group. F1's from the larger group are expected soon.

 

[bbrock]

This has been a great thread but I think a little logic 101 needs to be applied. Robb posted some excellent, and all too rare, location data for these imports which was followed by some great discussion with maps about how best to use this new information to classify these frogs. For the first time in my many years in this hobby, I saw froggers trying to group frogs based solely on population level data (location) rather than arguing over the minutia of morphological differences. But then conjecture set in and the morphology arguments emmerged. Basic logic tells us that you can't prove a negative so the question posed about whether the location data is incomplete cannot be proven. I would suggest going back to what reliable data are available, throwing out anything based on conjecture, and deciding how to treat these frogs based on the data rather on second guesses and morphological observations.

 

[Randy]

Does anyone know if there is a frog farm on Bastimentos Isle?

 

[Guest]

Two years ago there wasn't when I was there.
j

 

[rmelancon]

Coloration is an extremely variable trait in darts, BUT size of adults is not. Rob, do the frogs in your collection vary this much as adults? ....

Yes, and the pictures posted are both adults.