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Discussion Starter #1
We now have some location data on the recent pumilio imports. These locations are where the foundation stock were collected. The data is not exact nor do we have geographic coordinates or anything like that. I am not going to make an attempt to name these as new or existing morphs. I will simply provide what I was given and hopefully we can get some discussion going as to where to go from here.

Almirante - basically we were incorrect as they were collected nowhere near Almirante. These were collected "on the road to Chirique Grande". For those that have been there, there is a road to Chririque Grande that ends at the coast. In the ditches along side the road you can (could) find the "Chirique Grande" morph (green with black markings) and in the hills next to the road you find a red pumilio with bluish to gray legs. Not sure if these are identical to the "Man Creek" morph or not. I have only seen one picture of "Man Creek" and that one picture looks very similar to what we have. The location for "Man Creek" is pretty close to Chirique Grande so again, it is possibly the same frog but I'm really not sure. If anyone knows of a site that has more pictures of "Man Creek" pumilio please post it.

Bruno - again, these were collected quite a distance from where "Bruno" are reported so they are most likely not Bruno. There is also a size difference that probably rules Bruno out anyway. These were collected by "Boca del Rio Chirique, where the Chirique River meets the Carribean". These frogs resemble the pictures I've seen of "Chirique Grande" morph but were collected pretty far from Chirique Grande. The spotted, no spotted, green, greenish yellow, etc. were all collected from the same location.

So, thoughts and comments...
 

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Pumilio Location

Robb I understand most of the last 2 importations of the Pumilio have died, any info of any health testing being done on these animals, before or after export? Panama is now going through a chytrid crisis with entire geographic areas of amphibians being wiped out, I would hate to see anyone go through what we had to deal with after the Terribilis imports of '96. I know fecals have been run by some people, it would be great if anyone with any other test data would share that with us.
 
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Specifically a skin test would be nice, especially on the bastimentos...although I've heard that even the almirante (or man creek, or whatever) have been coming in rough as well.

Has anyone tried a skin culture? I think this will be my pet project for this semester, the only problem is that I will only be able to identify whether or not the infection is fungal or bacterial. Is there anyone, if I send pics of the culture, who would be able to ID?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Kyle - I can't think of anything that would be gained from providing false location data. None of those morphs exist in the US anyway so I don't think there would be any benefit trying to "create" new ones.

Mark - I had one animal (red & blue) from the first shipment tested for Chytrid and it came back negative. I don't have exact numbers on losses from the last 2 shipments but there have been some number of losses in all of the shipments to date. I know one of the last 2 shipments came in very cold and I would attibute a lot of losses to that stress.

It would certainly be helpful to know what, if any, fungal tests have been done by others. We should start a different thread for that as I would like to know peoples thoughts on identification of these animals.
 

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What are we going to call these "almirante" then? "On the road to Chirique Grande" morph is sure is not practical to use.

SB
 
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so what should we begin calling these morphs? I think a new name should begin being used fast, before any more confusion occurs.
 

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Well, being that there is already an Almirante morph named because it is found near the "city" of Almirante I would prefer that we not confuse these two separate locations.
I agree... any city or village close by, that people can adopt the name?

SB
 

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I was unable to find a better map, but for those of you, like me, who don't know where the different cities are of the area, I found this:



 
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Rob,


What are your thoughts regardiong the "red & blue" as" man creek?"....Like the Chiriqui River, there is a great deal of diversity in the morph...there are red with blue feet, red with off white feet, almost solid red, and then diferent variations on the red/blue combo.
I know the collection site issues with the morph. Should these even be labeled as such, or sshould they jsut be called "the panamanian red and blues"...thoughts?
 

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Man Creek looks very similar to Almirante..see picture. About a few months ago I saw some pics from a German guy that was there begin 2004. He showed three different colourmorphs. Alle three were found around Chriqui Grande. Near the village, some where further besides the road and more inland. But no place in the neighbourhood to give names...so he called everything Chiriqui Grande while showing the slides. It's not easy to give names but something like Rio Chiriqui is not a bad plan i think. Then you have f.e: Chiriqui village, Chiriqui mountains, Rio Chiriqui.
I have doubts if the imported morphs are Bruno. For what I have understand from the first founder of the "bruno's" they were very small. Nothing to compare to Chriqui Grande...those ones are bigger. So if you see adult frogs of these morphs it should be 'easy' to see the difference I think.


Chriqui Grande:

Chriqui Grande:



man Creek:

picture copyright by T. Ostrowski


Bruno:

 

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Rob,
Was there any collection info on the auratus that came in along with the pumilo?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Marcus - I think we can definitely say now that the greens are not Bruno. Based on, as you noted, size as well as the location that is about 30 miles south of where the Bruno morph was collected which is towards the top of the peninsula. The greens obviously look very similar to Chirique Grande but they were collected about 30-40 miles east of Chiriqui Grande. I guess it would be possible that this particular pumilio has a range from Chririqui Grande all the way over to Boca del Rio Chiriqui. I think calling these Chiriqui River kind of implies at the very least they are very similar to Chiriqui Grande. It only really matters if ever Chiriqui Grande gets imported then we have to make the decision if they should be kept separate.
The reds do look very much like your picture of Man Creek and the location seems to be in the general area of where the imported frogs are from. Do you have any other photos of these frogs that we can compare to? There is a lot of variation in the population that's been imported and it would be nice to have more than just one picture to make a comparison and decision on.

Will - the problem I see with labeling by color "Panamanian red & blues" is that there are other pumilio from Panama that are red & blue (almirante being one of them) which could be confusing. There are several red & blue/gray pumilio if you look at the two morph guides.
I'm not sure if we can figure out definitively whether or not they are from the same population as the Man Creek. So maybe Chiriqui Reds or something to distinguish the location as Chiriqui Grande but avoids using the CG name that is obviously already in use. If we can get more pix of Man Creek or otherwise determine that they are probably the same population maybe we call them "Man Creek04" to distinguish these from existing "Man Creek"s in the hobby or if "Man Creek" is ever imported.
 
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Marcus said:
I have doubts if the imported morphs are Bruno. For what I have understand from the first founder of the "bruno's" they were very small. Nothing to compare to Chriqui Grande...those ones are bigger. So if you see adult frogs of these morphs it should be 'easy' to see the difference I think.
What kind of size difference? The pair I had were slightly smaller than the "almirante" imports, but pattern-wise looked every bit the bruno.
 

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Here's another little monkey wrench....I believe that we have at least two different morphs of the "Almirante/Man Creek/whattheheckever" imported into the US recently. This is confirmed since the adults of one of my groups are about half the size of the adults in the other groups. Both groups ("morphs") have now successfully bred and raised froglets, so neither group consists of juveniles. They exhibit quite different colorations as well. The truth is that you can almost never know exactly where a frog was collected unless you speak to the tribesman who personally picked the frog up. I believe it's still too early to tell exactly what we're getting in. Once we get several more importations, I think we'll be able to start putting the pieces together and figuring out where these guys are coming from since we'll have a much larger basis for comparison. It wouldn't hurt if someone who's planning a trip to Panama soon to do a little research and take some pics :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Two different morphs? Who did you get your animals from? I have seen a lot of these animals and talked with the importer who has seen all of them and there was no significant difference that would suggest two different morphs. The colors and patterns are variable just like bastis. The exporter has also confirmed that all of the recent imports are descendents from the same location. So unless your animals came from another supplier I can't see them being two different morphs. Has anyone else reported this?
 
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