Dendroboard banner
21 - 40 of 44 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
1,756 Posts
Has anyone ever put purchased young pumilios in with a pair of adults of the same morph?

I have heard from a couple experianced sources that pums seem to do better in small viv set-ups than in plastic grow-out containers, even with leaf litter and springs.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,033 Posts
I also opt to leave many of the froglets to grow out a good time w parents, but the majority I have pulled early and place in a microfauna rich vive were mainly from very aggressive( feeding) parents who continually displayed aggressive behavior tiwards every froglet and even killing off many.....

To follow Mark's comment, I have not heard or seen this either...

Cairo, your observations would lead me to ask the following:

How big are the tanks in these situations? Are they heavily planted, with leaf litter, hiding spots, etc? Is there plenty of food (i.e. regular feeding, microfauna, etc...)?

The behavior you are seeing is something I would expect from an animal that was not getting enough food or didn't have adequate space. I'm not saying that is the case here, but those are scenarios that would potentially cause adults to go after their offspring.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,033 Posts
Has anyone ever put purchased young pumilios in with a pair of adults of the same morph?

I have heard from a couple experianced sources that pums seem to do better in small viv set-ups than in plastic grow-out containers, even with leaf litter and springs.
Phender, there are several risks with doing this. One, either group could be carrying parasites or illnesses that could be passed on to the tank mates causing helath issues or death. Two, it could cause fighting or stress resulting in malnourishment or death. Three, if they are breeding it could interupt the breeding and/or caring for tads. I'm sure there are some other possibilities that I may be leaving out. All that being said, you could mix them and they might be fine, but I would not risk it.
 

· Banned
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
I also opt to leave many of the froglets to grow out a good time w parents, but the majority I have pulled early and place in a microfauna rich vive were mainly from very aggressive( feeding) parents who continually displayed aggressive behavior tiwards every froglet and even killing off many.....

To follow Mark's comment, I have not heard or seen this either...

Cairo, your observations would lead me to ask the following:

How big are the tanks in these situations? Are they heavily planted, with leaf litter, hiding spots, etc? Is there plenty of food (i.e. regular feeding, microfauna, etc...)?

The behavior you are seeing is something I would expect from an animal that was not getting enough food or didn't have adequate space. I'm not saying that is the case here, but those are scenarios that would potentially cause adults to go after their offspring.
I keep all my obligates in 18-24s and up. I usually will even yse a combination of hardy and easy rotting leaf litter...of course one for frog security other for springtails to feed on and that I havent had issues with. All my pums are nice and filled up. Caucheros, esperanzas and my almirantes are the ones displaying this agression. I mean, on one instance, the female was aon a brom in the cup literally pinning the froglet under water...as I saw it when she hopped away.....then she drowned a second one in the higher brom.....They seem to display very alpha likebehavior and its move out of the way during feeding or you get runed over.
Ill snap a few pics of vivs...
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,033 Posts
"keep all my obligates in 18-24s and up. I usually will even yse a combination of hardy and easy rotting leaf litter...of course one for frog security other for springtails to feed on and that I havent had issues with. All my pums are nice and filled up. Caucheros, esperanzas and my almirantes are the ones displaying this agression. I mean, on one instance, the female was aon a brom in the cup literally pinning the froglet under water...as I saw it when she hopped away.....then she drowned a second one in the higher brom.....They seem to display very alpha likebehavior and its move out of the way during feeding or you get runed over.
Ill snap a few pics of vivs..."

I have worked with Almirante and Cauchero and haven't seen anything like this. Perhaps you have some really dominant frogs. BTW, I'll take some Esperanzas...
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,756 Posts
Phender, there are several risks with doing this. One, either group could be carrying parasites or illnesses that could be passed on to the tank mates causing helath issues or death. Two, it could cause fighting or stress resulting in malnourishment or death. Three, if they are breeding it could interupt the breeding and/or caring for tads. I'm sure there are some other possibilities that I may be leaving out. All that being said, you could mix them and they might be fine, but I would not risk it.
I can think of lots of "coulds" both for and against. I thought that since it is established that the babies have a better chance if left in with their parents, someone might have tried to establish a surrogate parent situation. I was wondering if any one has done it and what their experiences were. Can pum parents recognize their own offspring or would they generally leave all other immature pums of their morph, or maybe any morph alone?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
252 Posts
I'm not entirely sure what benefit the parents provide the young that makes it beneficial to leave young in the vivarium with them. We're talking about a pretty basic life form here. There's no mother's milk or home schooling. It seems logical that a parent would see a developing juvenile as a competitor for food and future mates.

However, I've only seen aggression towards a juvenile from my male Man Creek, which as it turns out, was spawning with the female at the time.

I personally leave my juvies in with the parents for as long as I possibly can, but for the most part I think this is one of those topics that is largely clouded in myth.
 

· Banned
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter · #29 ·
I'm not entirely sure what benefit the parents provide the young that makes it beneficial to leave young in the vivarium with them. We're talking about a pretty basic life form here. There's no mother's milk or home schooling. It seems logical that a parent would see a developing juvenile as a competitor for food and future mates.

However, I've only seen aggression towards a juvenile from my male Man Creek, which as it turns out, was spawning with the female at the time.

I personally leave my juvies in with the parents for as long as I possibly can, but for the most part I think this is one of those topics that is largely clouded in myth.
Honestly, like I just told somebody else...nowhere in the viv or in panama have I seen momma pum walking around the forest with a group of baby pums trailing her as ducklings....its more like done my part off you go! These frogs are wired to breed when reaching the correct age and to feed as soon as they see prey....I agree. That the parents really serve no benefit..... I have noticed more consistent breeding when parents are in a frogletless viv as well as they will make good use of axels and cups where froglets before came out from.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
19,344 Posts
Honestly, like I just told somebody else...nowhere in the viv or in panama have I seen momma pum walking around the forest with a group of baby pums trailing her as ducklings....its more like done my part off you go! These frogs are wired to breed when reaching the correct age and to feed as soon as they see prey....I agree. That the parents really serve no benefit..... I have noticed more consistent breeding when parents are in a frogletless viv as well as they will make good use of axels and cups where froglets before came out from.
As a hypothetical position (I'm not saying I'm buying the learned behavior thing) why would following a female be a requirement for learned behaviors?
 

· Banned
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Well I was being sarcastic about the duckling ways.....but my believe is that when it is time for the frog to call, he will call, and when the female hits a stage when to ovulate then she will as I just cannot see them watching and learning from adults in viv.....I dont think a friend and felliw well known and established obligate breeder wants me to say his name, but he brought it to my attention that it is also the method he handles froglets by and it is all he has to say because I know for a fact alot of us have and some only purchase frogs from him, and I dont think Ive ever purchased a healthier frog from anyone else in all seriousness....he agreed that froglets arent being breastfed, or all maternity traits.......and it is simply wiring of these animals that get them through every stage and help them thrive....all that is available from parents to froglets is potential aggression...
 

· Registered
Joined
·
19,344 Posts
Well I was being sarcastic about the duckling ways.....but my believe is that when it is time for the frog to call, he will call, and when the female hits a stage when to ovulate then she will as I just cannot see them watching and learning from adults in viv.....I dont think a friend and felliw well known and established obligate breeder wants me to say his name, but he brought it to my attention that it is also the method he handles froglets by and it is all he has to say because I know for a fact alot of us have and some only purchase frogs from him, and I dont think Ive ever purchased a healthier frog from anyone else in all seriousness....he agreed that froglets arent being breastfed, or all maternity traits.......and it is simply wiring of these animals that get them through every stage and help them thrive....all that is available from parents to froglets is potential aggression...
Again as a total hypothetical position, nothing in the above argument makes the case that behaviors cannot be learned. As an example, it is widely documented in birds, that while males are programmed to begin to sing, many of them learn to sing the correct dialect through hearing other males sing and if deprived of the exposure during a critical learning period, the correct song behaviors may not be learned...

Ed
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,033 Posts
I used to always pull my froglets but I found that I have higher success rate when leaving them in for 2-4 months. If I noticed a lot started dying off, I would pull them as you have. Many of the approaches in the hobby are based on experience and not a manual or rules...if you found more success with pulling them, I won't tell you not to. Plus, I wouldn't want to stand around wondering while my esperanza froglets got killed either...

One of the first pieces of advice I got from an older frogger 9 or 10 years ago were the phrases...what works for me or what I've found...much better than claiming to know the one and only way...it seems to apply in this siutation, what works for one might not work for another
 

· Banned
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter · #35 ·
My chocolate lab barks like a turkey(seriously-I think hes half chimp) and not like his dad and he is the biggest stud ever and has produced the biggest pups! Now my parrot did learn how to vocalize and some chords....quite frankly, The wrong chords, bc according to him I am a *** and looser as it is what he yells out everytime I walk by his cage! But funny thing is that, he has yet to deliver one little bird after 20 fem combos...whos the *** now??? Haha...cant make a legit arguement with ya as you are talking birds and not frogs....now if I read a confirmed scientific analyzis stating the same for amphians as to that of birds ,cats,dogs and butterflies.....then itd be smarter for me to shut my trap!!! Haha
 

· Registered
Joined
·
19,344 Posts
My chocolate lab barks like a turkey(seriously-I think hes half chimp) and not like his dad and he is the biggest stud ever and has produced the biggest pups! Now my parrot did learn how to vocalize and some chords....quite frankly, The wrong chords, bc according to him I am a *** and looser as it is what he yells out everytime I walk by his cage! But funny thing is that, he has yet to deliver one little bird after 20 fem combos...whos the *** now??? Haha...cant make a legit arguement with ya as you are talking birds and not frogs....now if I read a confirmed scientific analyzis stating the same for amphians as to that of birds ,cats,dogs and butterflies.....then itd be smarter for me to shut my trap!!! Haha
Nothing in the above post supports your position.. With respect to claiming you require proof of it in frogs and birds can't be used as an example (even though I was simply demonstrating that the phenomena is well known to occur in multiple taxa), do you have proof that it doesn't occur in frogs?

Ed
 

· Registered
Joined
·
19,344 Posts
One of the first pieces of advice I got from an older frogger 9 or 10 years ago were the phrases...what works for me or what I've found...much better than claiming to know the one and only way...it seems to apply in this siutation, what works for one might not work for another
And this is an important distinction. As I noted early on in this this thread, it is totally possible that aggression to the froglets by some frogs may be a result of the husbandry of those frogs. It is clear on multiple levels that we cannot mimic thier habitats sufficiently to be able to mimic optimal conditions when they can be found in high density (see for example, Lotters et al). What works for one person may not work for another person.

Ed
 

· Banned
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
One of the pairs who motivated me to start this thread is currently in a 150+ heavy heavy planted viv....and this morning, i fed them, three froglets were opposite side of established feeding spot....mom comes out from the highest brom and jumps down to the floor...gyess where she landed???
 

· Banned
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Exactly....is there even a way to confirm something like this? Ed....sometimes I do believe they can learn as I am left wondering everytime after feeding many of my frogs...how is it that everytime I walk by my tanks emptyhanded just observing,they are nowhere to be seen; .........yet, when I walk by with a dusting ff cup, they are all standing in the exact same spot I usually drop ffs on???? Just like a smart dog....are they conditioned to do this everytine or simply have naturaly learned this habbit??? My dilema is that I just dont kniw....and how can I conclude such thing?
 
21 - 40 of 44 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top