[cairo11]

So I would like to hear every pumilio breeders methods of handling the froglets once spotted....Is it written in stone to let froglets stay in viv with parent past 3 months, or do you pull as soon as he developes hunting skills?

As for me....second method is my choice as of late...I have been having greater success transfering froglets into the froglet headquarters once he continually makes his way down to hunt after maybe 2-3 weeks. Reason is - I actually noticed several parent pums pinning down froglets during feeding,although froglets posed no threat towards parents fruitflies,but when all on floor it seemed like parents competed and therefore punished froglets for being near their food and eventually killing them all off....ever since I started switching them over to a 12-12-18 viv rich w microfauna they have all been thriving and looking good so far...

Please feel free to add your two pesos and sharing your own method....

 

[shrum]

great post i was thinking about this just a few days ago when i saw my parent frogs ripping through all the springs i keep adding. I know my froglets are getting some of the springs because they are a little over a month old and are still alive lol. My froglets are bold and all over the tank and i would love to move them but was always told to wait. At this point i have a trio of parents also 3 froglets and at least 3 tads all in one tank. To me it seems crowded........

 

[cairo11]

I mean who really knows? Imo, pums in the wild lay eggs,rear them as long as needed( morphing) and hit the road and it is froglet on its own....unless out there they have some sort of momma bear and cub habbits and hang around w offspring until juvie stages......I seriously doubt it... For mom it. Is stick around and become the meal....as for dad, fertilize eggs and off to tge next girl... So why would that be any different in somewhat a controlled aetting where predatirs are removed??? I see it plain and simple, if a froglet can manage to grow out in the wild from day one....it sure as heck can manage in a ice little viv....if Im totally off please do correct me

 

[Ed]

In the not too distant past, the big issue with pumilio froglets was getting them to live past 6 months of age. A number of people working with them, noticed that there was a greater survivorship of froglets that were left in with the adults versus those that were pulled when they metamorphed.

Aggression by the adults is sporadically reported and isn't consistently reported by people leaving the froglets in the tanks for a period of time. (As an example, I have a couple of Bastimentos froglets in with the adults that have been in there since August with no aggression by the adults (and I observe them regularly since the tank is a couple of feet from my desk). Others have reported aggression initially but over time, the aggression declines and still others report that aggression contines.

This may be an artifact of enclosure set up and management as I also know several that have pumilio in very large enclosures (100 gallon volume) and have multiple age classes in the tank without any aggression).

Along this line, pumilio can also occur at high densities in optimal habitat (see Lotters etal for a reference picture), much higher than is discussed on captive populations.

Ed

 

[cairo11]

Dont get me wrong though..I dont just spot a newly morphed froglet and aet him into a froglet tanks that instant. Im talking more like....3-4 weeks. After tgey develop hunting skills or better yet, simply learn how to recognize food and be bold enough to go down to the floor and chase it.... For some reason, all my pums seem to compete w offspring as soon as they make their way down....I even found a fem pum in a center brom cup pinning froglet until he drowned....so far, all my froglets have cleared 4-5 months in froglet tank no problem....but its not the case for everyone....

 

[sports_doc]

My method has always been to leave them for 3-4 mo, sometimes longer.

But honestly, I havent experimented with pulling pum froglets at a month....

I have received some 'clearly' 1 mo old pums from hobbyists and most did fine....not all though

S

 

[cbreon]

I used to pull mine early but I have had much higher success leaving them in until 3-4 months. In fact, I won't ship pum froglets until 5-6 months minimum b/c I am too nervous, they seem so fragile.

In regards to reported cases of aggression, could these instances be an example of parents killing weak or unfit offspring? I know this occurs with other animals in the wild quite often.

 

[thedude]

I havent been breeding pums for too long but Ive been pulling them around 3-4 months as well with 90% of them surviving.

The most difficult thing for me seems to be keeping microfauna populations up in the tanks. I try to seed with springs at the same time as flies but in different locations in the tank. The springs are dumped in the leaf litter where the froglets usually are, and the flies are put near the front where the adults are "trained" the food is. This seems to help but the parents seem to really hinder the population levels.

 

[JeremyHuff]

I try to do all my seeding at night when the lights are out. It gives the bugs a fighting chance at establishing.

 

[Pumilo]

How about results further down the line? Some good friends of mine report very poor breeding from pums that were pulled early. They report good breeding from frogs that stayed with the parents till at least the 4 month mark.

 

[Bonobo]

At what age do you guys start putting together breeding pairs?

 

[cairo11]

I totally get everyones points and respect tgem to the fullest....but how does a wild pum froglet grow up on his own and reprduce?

If I were to say that I have a good amount of froglets that i pulled at a month and some reached adulthood and some are currently at 6+ months, would that just be luck ?

 

[cairo11]

If I may mention...some adult one having bred already....

 

[Ed]

Not free access (link is valid) JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

(free access) http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~halpern/pdf/Halpern_etal_AmNat2005.pdf

 

[Pumilo]

I totally get everyones points and respect tgem to the fullest....but how does a wild pum froglet grow up on his own and reprduce?

If I were to say that I have a good amount of froglets that i pulled at a month and some reached adulthood and some are currently at 6+ months, would that just be luck ?

If I may mention...some adult one having bred already....

You asked for observations and methods and that's what I posted. I did not say that it's not possible for them to breed if pulled early and raised separately. Many people,however, have reported that some captive bred pums do not breed as readily or as prolifically, than their wild caught counterparts. Perhaps my friend's observation can help explain that.
As far as "how does a wild pum froglet grow up on his own and reprduce?" goes, 1) I didn't say it's not possible and 2) in the wild, young pums would observe breeding behaivior their entire lives. It would be everywhere, all around them. In captivity, if pulled early, they would never be exposed to any sort of breeding behavior.

 

[cbreon]

" totally get everyones points and respect tgem to the fullest....but how does a wild pum froglet grow up on his own and reprduce?

If I were to say that I have a good amount of froglets that i pulled at a month and some reached adulthood and some are currently at 6+ months, would that just be luck ?"

I don't know if its luck or not, but the consensus from most of the successful pumilio breeders seems to point to some advantages and hightened success when keeping the froglets with the parents. I don't think anyone is going to tell you to never pull froglets early, its just whatever works for you.

In a natural setting I would imagine the froglets do stay in the general vicintity of the parents or are in the vicinity of other adults until reaching an age at when they begin to breed. It is difficult to say for sure, but my epxerience certainly seems to indicate that at least some skills are learned from the parents or other adults in the wild.

 

[cbreon]

And after reading Ed's link, this study also seems to point to the potential of learned skills...

thanks Ed, interesting...

 

[cairo11]

I also opt to leave many of the froglets to grow out a good time w parents, but the majority I have pulled early and place in a microfauna rich vive were mainly from very aggressive( feeding) parents who continually displayed aggressive behavior tiwards every froglet and even killing off many.....then again, it is the beauty of this hobby qhen methods and pisibilities are endless and in a way, theres a little room for innovation.....although, there is nothing innovative about my method, it might eventually prove to be something to consider for some froggers who have had similar issues. If you know your froglets dont stand a chance around aggresive parents, then why not create and practice a solution...?

 

[frogface]

And after reading Ed's link, this study also seems to point to the potential of learned skills...

thanks Ed, interesting...

That is interesting.

I was going to talk about how when I had only one froglet in the parents tank, he grew at a fast rate. Now that he has been moved and I have 2 new froglets, and a few about to morph, in the parents tank, they are not growing as fast. They are well fed, so I don't think it's food competition. I was thinking of moving them out to see if it increases their growth rate. Now, I'm not so sure.

Interesting topic.

 

[markpulawski]

Cairo you've had Pumilio parents kill offspring in tanks? I think we all have seen aggression, many times between mated pairs but I have not seen a parent kill a youngster though I have had a few disappear.