[Percularis]

I own three Pacific Chorus Frog froglets. I have them in an 8 gallon vivarium with a screen cover. I've never seen them even go near the water. There is a few hundred springtails hopping arouns on the surface and they still won't go in. I was away for a few days and the water almost dried up, but still with dried skin they wouldn't go in the water. Tody the temperaturr was nearly 100 and they still wouldn't go in. I've heard of darts takinh rare dips and they aren't even pond frogs. Is there a reason they avoid it? I fill it up every week with distilled water. For what reasons have your darys tool a swim? Anythig I can do to coax them in?

 

[Ed]

1) they aren't pond frogs, they are considered terrestrial.
2) outside of the breeding season they may disperse away from the water
3) they engage in water retaining behavior by the way they perch on the glass
4) If they are huddling they are also conserving water

There may be other conditions which are making the enclosure unsuitable for the frogs which is why they are not active and are not engaged in soaking or other behaviors like shedding.

If the tank is 100 F, then the frogs are probably at risk as in the wild they would move to smaller cooler microniches.

 

[jkooiman]

They are probably "filling up" when you are asleep. They are an incredibly drought tolerant species, so don't worry. Also, don't use distilled water. JVK

 

[Ed]

I'm not sure that recommending to not use distilled is correct as the rapid evaporation is going to deposit salts in the "pond' area.

A lot of the hype over distilled or RO water isn't supported by more recent tests on the physiology of amphibians in general and frogs in specific. I can give you the references if you want..

Ed

 

[jkooiman]

I'm not sure that recommending to not use distilled is correct as the rapid evaporation is going to deposit salts in the "pond' area.

A lot of the hype over distilled or RO water isn't supported by more recent tests on the physiology of amphibians in general and frogs in specific. I can give you the references if you want..

Ed

I was wondering why you didn't mention the distilled water Ed. I would love to read any online links you might have. I have always thought distilled water as one of the ultimate "no, no's" in frogkeeping, if I can avoid these damn water stains, let me know!JVK

 

[Percularis]

1) they aren't pond frogs, they are considered terrestrial.
2) outside of the breeding season they may disperse away from the water
3) they engage in water retaining behavior by the way they perch on the glass
4) If they are huddling they are also conserving water

There may be other conditions which are making the enclosure unsuitable for the frogs which is why they are not active and are not engaged in soaking or other behaviors like shedding.

If the tank is 100 F, then the frogs are probably at risk as in the wild they would move to smaller cooler microniches.

The oldest is two months out of the water. On the hot day thr outside temperature was 100, inside was around 75-80. They are active in the day, but they are more active after I turn the lights off. Haven't seen shedding or soaking yet. The frogs all eat as usual. What can I do to make their environment more suitable? They have a huge tillandsia and lots of big leafs to provide cover. There are many shady places for them.

 

[Ed]

I was wondering why you didn't mention the distilled water Ed. I would love to read any online links you might have. I have always thought distilled water as one of the ultimate "no, no's" in frogkeeping, if I can avoid these damn water stains, let me know!JVK

I don't believe the information has been published for free on the web.

If we look at the history of the issue, it started with several articles discussing ion loss to severely hypotonic solutions primarily by tiger salamander larvae which were summed up in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry (2001, Kreiger Press) with the recommendation to not use distilled or RO water with animals as it causes the loss of some ions into the solution (calcium) through the osmoregulation. The more recent data came out in as series of experiments in Ecological and Enviromental Physiology of Amphibians (2009, Oxford Press). In those the studies were run for a longer period and it demonstrated that yes those ions were lost to the solution but the amphibians also were able to actively reabsorb those ions back from solution. The loss is basically energetic unless the amphibian has something compromising the ability to osmoregulate such as septecimias or chytridmycosis. So as long as the amphibian is healthy it is in reality fine to use and you can get away from those calcium stains.

If we step back and look at it clinically, technically tap water or filtered water or even pond or stream water is also significantly hypoosmotic in potential to the amphibians as the osmolarity of amphibian plasma is much higher than that of those water sources. The impact is the same, the amphibian loses ions to the water and reabsorbs them. Somewhere on forum I think have some of the data on amphibian ringers compared to pedialyte and why pedialyte shouldn't be used in cases of suspected hypocalcemia.

In animals with compromised abilities to osmoregulate, amphibian ringers is suggested for a number of reason as it reduces stress on the system of the amphibian and in cases of extreme water retention, under the care of a vet, hyperosmotic amphibians ringers are suggested.

In cases like the above, where the water is coming into contact with a variety of materials the water is als still going to be hypotonic with respect to the amphibian but is going to have picked up stuff from the enclosure which is going to go into solution.

Does that help? Sorry it isn't on the web for free.

Ed

 

[Ed]

The oldest is two months out of the water. On the hot day thr outside temperature was 100, inside was around 75-80. They are active in the day, but they are more active after I turn the lights off. Haven't seen shedding or soaking yet. The frogs all eat as usual. What can I do to make their environment more suitable? They have a huge tillandsia and lots of big leafs to provide cover. There are many shady places for them.

What is the temperature in the cage? In the first post, you reported 100 F which makes it look like that is the temperature the frogs are exposed to.. in this post, you are posting that it is 100 F outside and 75-80 F inside. Which is the temperature that the frogs are being exposed to?

In the first post, you reported that they have dried skin on them, that sound like they haven't shed.. Do they have extra dried skin on them or are you reporting it from the glass?

They would shed at night. If they are being active at night, how do you know that they aren't using the pool after you go to bed?

 

[jkooiman]

I don't believe the information has been published for free on the web.

If we look at the history of the issue, it started with several articles discussing ion loss to severely hypotonic solutions primarily by tiger salamander larvae which were summed up in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry (2001, Kreiger Press) with the recommendation to not use distilled or RO water with animals as it causes the loss of some ions into the solution (calcium) through the osmoregulation. The more recent data came out in as series of experiments in Ecological and Enviromental Physiology of Amphibians (2009, Oxford Press). In those the studies were run for a longer period and it demonstrated that yes those ions were lost to the solution but the amphibians also were able to actively reabsorb those ions back from solution. The loss is basically energetic unless the amphibian has something compromising the ability to osmoregulate such as septecimias or chytridmycosis. So as long as the amphibian is healthy it is in reality fine to use and you can get away from those calcium stains.

If we step back and look at it clinically, technically tap water or filtered water or even pond or stream water is also significantly hypoosmotic in potential to the amphibians as the osmolarity of amphibian plasma is much higher than that of those water sources. The impact is the same, the amphibian loses ions to the water and reabsorbs them. Somewhere on forum I think have some of the data on amphibian ringers compared to pedialyte and why pedialyte shouldn't be used in cases of suspected hypocalcemia.

In animals with compromised abilities to osmoregulate, amphibian ringers is suggested for a number of reason as it reduces stress on the system of the amphibian and in cases of extreme water retention, under the care of a vet, hyperosmotic amphibians ringers are suggested.

In cases like the above, where the water is coming into contact with a variety of materials the water is als still going to be hypotonic with respect to the amphibian but is going to have picked up stuff from the enclosure which is going to go into solution.

Does that help? Sorry it isn't on the web for free.

Ed

This is kind of "revolutionary" to me, seems like I'm always the last to know anything sometimes. I wish I had some college courses under my belt to better translate the whole issue, but I do get the gist. Thanks! JVK

 

[johnyrocks]

They're not supposed to go in the water, just NEAR it.

 

[Ed]

This is kind of "revolutionary" to me, seems like I'm always the last to know anything sometimes. I wish I had some college courses under my belt to better translate the whole issue, but I do get the gist. Thanks! JVK

Sorry I wasn't trying to be overely technical, it just is easier to use the specific technical term instead of typing out a multiword explination.

If you consider that the information on the recovery of the ions from the water came out around 2009, it is actually fairly new information.

Ed

 

[Shockfrog]

With some medications like Bactyfec from Colombo, it is advised to use this with distilled water on amphibians. Also it is not uncommon to treat frogs by bathing them in a medicinal solution for some minutes. Please do note that a combination of these methods, bathing them in this solution with distilled water, will kill your frogs! But I guess normal use for spraying and water features is fine as long as the water is not completely seperated from anything else, and can take up ions...

 

[Ed]

With some medications like Bactyfec from Colombo, it is advised to use this with distilled water on amphibians. Also it is not uncommon to treat frogs by bathing them in a medicinal solution for some minutes. Please do note that a combination of these methods, bathing them in this solution with distilled water, will kill your frogs! But I guess normal use for spraying and water features is fine as long as the water is not completely seperated from anything else, and can take up ions...

Just so people have a better understanding of the whole issue about distilled, RO, tap and so forth..
The way solutions that may be important in osmoregulation are compared is through osmolarity which can be referenced here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmolarity) (to prevent a lengthy tedious explanation).
The different types of water used to care for amphibians (RO, DI, tap and even high content mineral waters) have a osmolarity that typically runs from 0 (for RO, DI) up to 28 mOsm/kg (for high content mineral waters) (see www.osmolality.com/pdf/Rave%20Drugs.doc). This is then compared to amphibian ringers which has a rating of 229 mOsm/kg (Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, 2001 Krieger’s Press), which is considered to be isotonic for the purposes of osmoregulation with amphibian body chemistries.
As can be seen by the values for water in the paragraph above, regardless of the type of water used, ions will be lost into solution. The degree of loss is going to be of the same scale regardless of the type used as the osmolarity is very similar to one another. The frogs will actively scavenge ions back out of the water (or if the substrate contains mobile calcium and other ions and is moist) from the substrate. This discussion is assuming healthy amphibians and not ill or otherwise compromised ones.

There is a lot of hype about distilled and RO water that has been continually perpetuated on the internet for a number of years, and I’m sure will continue for quite a long time into the future.
Some other discussions were held in this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...10480-dying-frog-help-please-2.html#post87883

Ed
Reconstituted RO or DI is still going to be less than 28 mOsm/kg unless you get crazy with the dosing.

 

[Percularis]

What is the temperature in the cage? In the first post, you reported 100 F which makes it look like that is the temperature the frogs are exposed to.. in this post, you are posting that it is 100 F outside and 75-80 F inside. Which is the temperature that the frogs are being exposed to?

75-80. It never gets over 80 in my house, and one days that it gets warm in the house I have fans in my room.

In the first post, you reported that they have dried skin on them, that sound like they haven't shed.. Do they have extra dried skin on them or are you reporting it from the glass?

Sorry. I have problems with being clear in my posts. The skin wasn't dry and wrinkly, but it has bumps on it which was an indicator to me that they were dry. I hadn't been around to mist for two days, but after I misted the bumps went away and they had smooth shiny skin. That made me worry that they aren't using their water hole.

They would shed at night. If they are being active at night, how do you know that they aren't using the pool after you go to bed?

Would I see skin from their sheds? Do they shed under shelter?

Whenever I go into my room at night when it is pitch black I check. I've never seen them in or near the pool. The water runoff in the viv pools in the front middle against the glass. There is a log hanging over the water pool. On the front side there are springtails on the log. On the other side the frogs hang out and eat the occasional springtail that ventures to the other side. They seem to hate water.

Answers in red.