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That gonna be a hard one to follow a hill. Everyone buys frogs they dont plan on or have room for. Then you just make room and all is well. The important thing is not buying frogs you have no way to care for properly.
 

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a hill said:
I will never buy frogs I haven't planned on and have no where to put them.
That gonna be a hard one to follow a hill. Everyone buys frogs they dont plan on or have room for. Then you just make room and all is well. The important thing is not buying frogs you have no way to care for properly.
Yeah. Gotta be flexible. It's kinda like hearing, "Honey, we're pregnant..." :roll:
 

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Nuggular said:
That gonna be a hard one to follow a hill. Everyone buys frogs they dont plan on or have room for. Then you just make room and all is well. The important thing is not buying frogs you have no way to care for properly.
Well it was really intended for people who just like see some frogs and buy them. I can see plenty of exceptions here with the members who have enough stuff lying around that it doesn't matter if they intended to buy it or not, but there are a large majority of people who if they see a nice frog somewhere they might just decide to buy it before they know what they're getting into and have no where to put it.

This may also go with the one about impulse buys. Maybe if I reworded it it would be better...

-Andrew

Edit: Also if you can make room on the spur of a moment than I personally would consider you having room :wink: There are many people who couldn't do that
 

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a hill said:
Edit: Also if you can make room on the spur of a moment than I personally would consider you having room :wink: There are many people who couldn't do that
I agree with this (and your previous rule). I've seen too many collections crash because froggers got the collecting bug and grew their collections faster than their capacity to care for them. And often times the frogs that die are quite rare in the hobby (part of the collector bug trait). I wouldn't put this in a code of ethics, but my advice is to not obtain more than 3 species/populations of frogs your first year in the hobby (less if you are completely new to keeping animals in captivity). And after that first year, maintain a reasonable estimate of the time and number of vivaria you can realistically care for.
 

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Tim F said:
Yeah. Gotta be flexible. It's kinda like hearing, "Honey, we're pregnant..." :roll:
Or that first time you get to say... no we're not, you are. :)

Really not being mean, but the reality of it is I can't have a kid. :) Boy she didn't think that humor was very funny when I actually said it. :) Going on 11 years now so she still puts up with me.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Re: CODE OF ETHICS

Just to bring this back-up. Good things for us to keep in mind from time to time and for new keepers. Anyway we could get some of this into a caresheet as previously suggested by Kyle?

Anything more to add?
 

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Re: CODE OF ETHICS

I will follow established quarantine guidelines to protect the health of an established collection and any new acquistions.

I will maintain a level of sanitation and cleanliness to minimize disease risk to a cosmopolitan collection.
 

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Re: CODE OF ETHICS

How about this for a code, I will not knowingly sell any frog that is not in healthy condition/ I will not purposely mislabel frogs with intent to sell them for money than they are worth.

Not that these are problems on this board, but I think this is good ethics.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Re: CODE OF ETHICS

Oh but it happens. I have seen said frogs, not from DB mind you, but I have seen sick frogs sold.
 

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Re: CODE OF ETHICS

Oh but it happens. I have seen said frogs, not from DB mind you, but I have seen sick frogs sold.
I have no doubt that it does happen, but I think most people on DB won't stand for poor quality and i think most people would speak up if they saw someone trying to sell cobalts as yellow heads or yellow backs as giant orange and so on. But Also I think its far too easy for someone to sell a frog as something its not. Like someone sells a person a male knowing they are looking for a female.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Re: CODE OF ETHICS

I was more thinking of people selling a dart with something like SLS and not disclosing that. But it also goes for people selling animals with faulty information on purpose.
 

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Re: CODE OF ETHICS

Ethics are a VERY sticky wicket. I read this whole thread and, honestly, there were a few that got my hackles up. I am not saying I condone hybrids or buying WC frogs willy-nilly. But I think we need to be very cautious about the tone of this "code." If it comes off haughty or pompous, you are more likely to drive a newb into hiding instead of bringing them into the community and educating them.

I don't breed for hybrids. And I would not use my limited space and money resources for them at this point in my frogging "career." But the first darts that I purchased were known hybrids sold to me as such. If a newb just wants some pretty frogs, isn't that a good use of those hybrids that occur rather than committing frogs of known and valuable lineage to someone that is less likely to be in the hobby in a year? Labelling them as hybrids is a reasonable inclusion in the code. But I think it is presumptuous (sp?) to tell people to destroy any hybrids they get.

WC frogs are essential to the continuation of this hobby. Beginners should not be taking them in. But WC's are the best way to diversify bloodlines in the hands of an experienced keeper with access to good vet care.

Again, I am not necessarily condoning either behavior in a beginner. But just playing devil's advocate and trying to keep this code "newb-friendly" since that is, after all, the target audience (I think?).
Rich
 

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Re: CODE OF ETHICS

If we could just keep track of the lines thier would be no reason that we would need WC frogs..if this is the case then why CB at all if we are just gonna have to return to the wild to get more???
Brian
 

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Re: CODE OF ETHICS

You know folks, there are similar groups ie;Dogs, Cats, & the
Killifish people who have nearly the same philosophical traits, so
why reinvent the wheel ?
If you need or want them in writting , then why not aquire these
and "tweek" them, alot easier than from scratch. Plus odds are
the've seen and tried plugging more "holes" than you've touched on
here.
BUT, unfortunately like sign's, only the honest people adhere
to them. Instead of Ethics, Standards maybe a better term, plus
you get to create another acronym (TLA), ie; AKA, CFA or TTFN !
TTFN I made up - Three Toes For Now, not the other :)
Anyway, it's probably easier to "police", update & distribute to
ANYONE, newbie etc. All you'd need to start, is a consensus of say
5-11 breeders, then they can "yea or nay" from there. K.I.S.S
But, hey what do I know, just some extra brain cells bouncing around !

Capt. Morgan

"Heard a woman say, "I bought a new baby !"
Really, thats how you do it now ? I liked the old way !
"No, I mean my new shiny car !"
Ok then... I'm outta here
 

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Re: CODE OF ETHICS

I personally look at this thread as what I believe in rather then what ever one should believe in..people do what they want and in some case's will go agents the grain to just to do so.
Brian
 

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Re: CODE OF ETHICS

If we could just keep track of the lines thier would be no reason that we would need WC frogs..if this is the case then why CB at all if we are just gonna have to return to the wild to get more???
Brian
Really? We would NEVER need more? IMO, that is a dramatic oversimplification of the current reality in this hobby. I think we have a pretty good idea where all of the blue jeans that are left in the US came from. Do we have a big enough "founding population" to ensure a reasonable approximation of the genetic diversity present in the wild population? I would leave it to Tor, Brent, Robb, Adam or whoever else has them. But I'd bet that they would say "no." What happened to all of those Man Creek pumilio offspring? They fell ou tof favor and there aren't that many left because "bigger and better" morphs came in and took the effort away form them. And there are likely other cases where we know lineage, but the frogs became unpopular, or were difficult to breed, and their population was bottle-necked.

In an ideal world, this would not happen and we would know lineage on all of the frogs. And that is part of TWI's mission. But we are not anywhere near there. And there are other species of frogs that should be represented, but are not yet for legal reasons or because hobbyists prefer colorful to brown frogs (I know, Corey is an exception). So I think it is premature to "outlaw" WC frogs. But we should definitely encourage CB.

Captive breeding now, for some species, is in its infancy. As we refine techniques for different species, we learn more about those species and others that have similar behavior, ecology, etc. So practice makes perfect for when we have enough of a certain species/morph to consitute a representative genetic sample, even if we know it will require future importations to accomplish that.

Rich Terrell
Insular Exotics
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Re: CODE OF ETHICS

I think this topic is getting off hand a bit. Cartainly it wasn't ment to be a list of rules everyone must follow, but rather some guidelines. I guess I was nieve in starting it. Lets not turn it into a debate about hybrids, or wild caught animals, or whatever. There is a lot of personal opinion in this thread, but there are also some really good points to think about. If there is some good info in this thread you can use, good. If you disagree with some of it, that is fine too.
 

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Re: CODE OF ETHICS

Really? We would NEVER need more? IMO, that is a dramatic oversimplification of the current reality in this hobby. I think we have a pretty good idea where all of the blue jeans that are left in the US came from. Do we have a big enough "founding population" to ensure a reasonable approximation of the genetic diversity present in the wild population? I would leave it to Tor, Brent, Robb, Adam or whoever else has them. But I'd bet that they would say "no." What happened to all of those Man Creek pumilio offspring? They fell ou tof favor and there aren't that many left because "bigger and better" morphs came in and took the effort away form them. And there are likely other cases where we know lineage, but the frogs became unpopular, or were difficult to breed, and their population was bottle-necked.

In an ideal world, this would not happen and we would know lineage on all of the frogs. And that is part of TWI's mission. But we are not anywhere near there. And there are other species of frogs that should be represented, but are not yet for legal reasons or because hobbyists prefer colorful to brown frogs (I know, Corey is an exception). So I think it is premature to "outlaw" WC frogs. But we should definitely encourage CB.

Captive breeding now, for some species, is in its infancy. As we refine techniques for different species, we learn more about those species and others that have similar behavior, ecology, etc. So practice makes perfect for when we have enough of a certain species/morph to consitute a representative genetic sample, even if we know it will require future importations to accomplish that.

Rich Terrell
Insular Exotics
So what you're saying is we need to import more frogs because people could not keep the ones we got alive and only a few people got them to breed? I am not saying that at this point in time we have to stop getting WC but we really need to decide at what point enough is enough. How many blue jeans where imported into this country back in the day?
Probably enough that we could have possibly started something with them. But like in most case's not enough was done then to get things going and it was done at the frogs expense. Thier is a fin line from what we need and was is greed.
Brian
 
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