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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello,
I will be visiting Panama very soon and was wondering if anyone had contact info for the "farm" that is producing all the pumilio and auratus that are being imported. I do not want to obtain frogs from them, only visit. Leaving soon, so if anyone has a name and number, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks,
Ron
 

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I have a feeling that the frog farm consists of 30 kids that go into the forest and collect the frogs for 5 cents per hr. It seems a bit odd that there are no juveniles or babies leaving the farm, only hundreds of adults.

I remember seeing the "facilities" on a post here, and I doubt that they would produce so many frogs

I remember the last shipment included several hundreds of auratus, all badly bruised up with lesions and open sores on their bodies.

I think their "facilities" can possibly produce some numbers, but I speculate that they built them just as a PR move to show anyone who questions the origins of the frogs that in fact they're raising them and not WC.

.... just my 2 speculatively pessimistic cents :) I'm very hopeful that you can prove me wrong.

kikker said:
Hello,
I will be visiting Panama very soon and was wondering if anyone had contact info for the "farm" that is producing all the pumilio and auratus that are being imported. I do not want to obtain frogs from them, only visit. Leaving soon, so if anyone has a name and number, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks,
Ron
 

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You might want to try Robb Melancon, as I believe he has some contact info.

Marty, I have to disagree. If they were to catch pumilio from the wild, the male/female ratio would be significantly skewed to males. As I understand it, many of the shipments of pumilio have come in with very even sex ratios. Just my thought.
 

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I agree with Marty here. Besides, these frogs are plucked out of the wild alot easier by color than they are by sound. If you take the less-vibrantly colored Bruno morph into consideration, there actually IS a male-heavy load coming into the US.
 

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I think one major method of catching these frogs is just setting out a bunch of fruit. The insects begin to propogate and the frogs swarm in to feast. I've seen a pic of like 30 auratus huddled around some orange-like fruit. If they did this they could just wait a little and go to town on the frogs that are innocently feasting. Just another option of how they could acquire these frogs. Obviously there are other people in other locations collecting the different morphs. Just a thought.
 

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Maybe instead of a breeder you could visit the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute:

The Smithsonian Tropical Research Institution (STRI) in Panama, the only bureau of the Smithsonian Institution based outside of the United States, is dedicated to understanding biological diversity.
http://www.stri.org/index.php

Seems they have a couple of folks working with darts.

Best,

Marcos
 

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I've been on several insect collecting trips (few times in Costa Rica, Mexico, French Guyana, Brazil and Peru. Hopefully Borneo in November) and it was amazing what kids as well as adults would bring us for some candy or an old pair of shorts.

I didn't collect any frogs, but I can't see how that could be much different. People in poverty striken places, couldn't care less what happens to these animals as long as they can provide food on the table... Rules and morals in those places are completely out the window.

If you want a roasted macaw for lunch, they will provide it. (I myself had parot eggs, tapir, monkey and pekari to eat - and who knows what else)

I have also seen bullet holes in a cabin in a protected reserve in Brazil, where a poacher was killed for hunting monkeys for food and skins. Owner of the reserve simply killed him.

I'm not saying that all the people are savages there, but are definitely not as sensitive about nature and animals like we are.

Homer said:
You might want to try Robb Melancon, as I believe he has some contact info.

Marty, I have to disagree. If they were to catch pumilio from the wild, the male/female ratio would be significantly skewed to males. As I understand it, many of the shipments of pumilio have come in with very even sex ratios. Just my thought.
 

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Do any of you have proof that they're collecting the pumilio and auratus directly from the wild? I bet not. This subject was gone over before the first shipment arrived last year. People in South America and the US have worked hard to relax the regulations on exporting darts. People who's efforts could be ruined if people here start slinging around baseless accusations that the frogs were collected illegally when they have no proof. Would you want pumilio shipments cut off again? So unless you know for a fact that that the frogs were collected illegally and have evidence, don't insinuate. It's called libel.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I got 3 pumilios bastimentos and all are males waiting for 4 more next week i hope i get at least 1 female. They came pretty slim, I think they had few worms inside eating their food; I did some fast di-worming on them and now they are too fat :lol:

I also saw part of that big shipment of aruatus; and I tell you guys it was sad 90% of the frogs were damage, one of them was even missing a front leg :cry: I went to check on them 3 days later and the only one alive was the guy with no leg.
:cry:


Xavier
 

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its ridiculuous that we have to go through this again. This subject has been run into the ground.

The accusations that an importer got "shut down" and recently opened up again is very ignorant, and as mentioned before, is libel. I know one of the 2 major importers, and it has nothing to do with that. Panama simply didn't allow pumilio to be exported until it was proven that someone was farming them down there. Don't speculate on an open forum like this. Do that in your head, and in private conversations. I could speculate that dendroboard is really just a group of froggers trying to control the dart frog market by creating threads that hype up the frogs that they are selling. A frog mafia. Ignorant isn't it? (note to admins: just making a point)

Let's stick to facts.

1) There are several greenhouses setup for the sole purpose of breeding these frogs.

2) The exporter has provided locale data on the parent population.

3) Who said that only adults were being imported? I got several juveniles out of the last shipment.

4) It is necessary for the farms to do some WC collecting, but only to supply a parent population to their greenhouses. Do some of these get exported? Probably, but when they go in to collect pumilio for exportation, how can you really tell the WC from the Farm-raised?

5) Before these farms were allowed to export, they had to prove that they were raising and breeding at least 2 generations of the frogs.
 

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Thanks rompida!
Doing a search on a topic often answers questions one may have.
 

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I'm just curious. Does anyone have a perspective on why so many auratus are being exported? Given that they breed so well in captivity, it seems curious. Are we looking at different/rare morphs here?

Bill
 

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Well, let's put it this way... One assumes that CITES or some kind of environmental government official has looked over these farms and seen them in person. Or do you think they just said, "OK, there's some farms. We don't need to see them or check that they're not poaching frogs. We haven't allowed export of these frogs in years, so let's just allow them to maybe export wild frogs just for the heck of it." Remember also that they said farmS. Does anyone outside Panama know how many there are?
 

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Your facts don't really convince me about the excellent practices of these breeding farms.... Nor do I really care for that matter. I did get some pumilios myself and that's what counts to me.

I wasn't trying to spark up a debate or anything like that. I simply refuse to blindly believe and accept stories on how great the export of 100% farm raised frogs are. If that breeding farm was located in Japan, I'd have no problems believing it, but not when it's located in pumilio territory, but if you want to believe it... doesn't bother me... gullible people also have a place in this world and should be somewhat respected :lol:

4) It is necessary for the farms to do some WC collecting, but only to supply a parent population to their greenhouses. Do some of these get exported? Probably, but when they go in to collect pumilio for exportation, how can you really tell the WC from the Farm-raised?
Your fact #4 (although contradictory in itself) leaves a loophole, which I believe is what is exploited (to what degree? – only the farm owners know ) to obtain proper paperwork from the government as well as to supply frogs to the market and keep the operations running. They're simply doing what they have to do in order to fulfill the demand and make some money.

Sure they could be producing few frogs for every X number they sell, there really is no way of knowing unless you have inside information into the practices on those farms. I very much doubt that you would give up that information, knowing that by keeping it to yourself, you can make a decent coin.
 
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