[Antonio]

I recently acquired 0.0.3 P. terribilis from a local reptile shop that had them labeled as Yellow P. terribilis. Before purchasing I had them hold them for two weeks to be sure they were feeding well and were not going to have any immediate issues. I also asked which breeder they came from. They were sourced from Houston Frogs. I contacted Houston Frogs to inquire more about the lineage of the frogs and to purchase a few more for the group. To my surprise they informed me that the froglets I purchased were actually “true golden” which immediately sparked a million questions from me. I will say they happily answered all of my questions. My first question was why are the froglets orange. The answer I revived was “they were selectively breed from orange terribilis that showed a more rose gold coloration” and as froglets they are orange and that the orange changes to a rose gold color as they mature. They are growing fast, eating dwarf white isopods, 1/8” crickets and hydei. The first photo below is the female breeder mine came from. The following two photos are of the actual froglets I have (please excuse the coco coir and spagnum on the Frogs. These were taken before I added the leaf litter in the grow out container). Just looking for opinions and thoughts on the situation. I would like to breed them in the future but also do not want to cross breed or continue a line that may not be idealistic.
Sorry for the long read, I just wanted to be sure all information was included. Thank you for your time and any input.

 

[Dane]

Re: P. terribilis “true golden”?

I've been keeping darts for 15 years, and I've never heard of "True Golden" terribilis. I'm guessing that it's a line that Houston Frogs "created" as a sales/marketing ploy? I've never cared for designer, or trait-bred frogs myself, but there are those out there who do. I wouldn't mix them with any other terribilis (especially not Tesoros de Colombia), but as long as you label and describe them accurately so that the buyer knows what they are getting, they likely wouldn't be any different from "clown" leucomelas, "sky blue" azureus, "lemon drop" yellowbacks etc.

 

[Antonio]

Thank you. Truthfully I would rather not have line breed or trait breed animals either. I’ve debated selling them and getting actual orange, yellow or mint terribilis.

 

[bsr8129]

I question what is true golden terribilis, to know knowledge there is only three "colors" orange, yellow and mint. When i see golden it always make me wonder are they talking about yellow or possibly orange, who knows.

im also surprised to see that Houston frogs is selectively/line breeding frogs to make them have a certain color to them.

 

[daryl34]

Re: P. terribilis “true golden”?

The color variants as I have seen are , the mint, yellow and orange. The two others are black footed oranges , and black footed yellows. The yellow are very yellow , no real mistake on those.

I am working with 4 of the 5 now. Have a great day

 

[Antonio]

Houston Frogs did not line breed them from what they told me. They purchased theirs from someone not disclosed to me as “golden” they did state that they were from orange terribilis though.
I would like to reassure that they answered all of my questions patiently and were open and honest with the answers to the best of my knowledge. I’m in no way shape or form trying to say anything negative about them. I will do business with Houston Frogs directly in the future but never again will I buy frogs from the place I purchased these from because of how they miss labeled them as yellow.

 

[Spaff]

Re: P. terribilis “true golden”?

I'm guessing that it's a line that Houston Frogs "created" as a sales/marketing ploy?

Houston Frogs hasn't been in the hobby long enough to "create" lines.

If I had to guess, what they told you is more of a story to try to create a sales/marketing ploy than anything they or anyone else actually did. They've vended a couple of shows local to me, and I've personally spoken to a number of people involved with that group. They come off as very gimmicky to me with their "special" substrate with however many different cultures of "beneficial bacteria", etc., etc. It all gave me the impression that they were there to use big buzz words to convince inexperienced hobbyists to buy expensive things that they absolutely don't need.

I've also seen them play internet "expert" quite aggressively and often only to have their claims be refuted by more experienced hobbyists. Or, they fail to correctly identify a frog that's been available in the hobby for years. That was evident even at their sales booth where they had labeled pictures of frogs depicting the wrong species (reticulata picture to show Iquitos amazonica/vent, etc.). That mistake shouldn't happen if you're the expert you claim to be (or if you use your own photos of the frogs you claim to be breeding).

 

[Diesel]

I hate where this thread is going.
Personally I’ve spoken with the owner from HF and seen there setups.
I can say only positive things.
Btw, the true golden T is not sold as true golden T but as yellow T.
I purchased 4 and yes they are orange.

 

[Dane]

Re: P. terribilis “true golden”?

I hate where this thread is going.
Personally I’ve spoken with the owner from HF and seen there setups.
I can say only positive things.
Btw, the true golden T is not sold as true golden T but as yellow T.
I purchased 4 and yes they are orange.

So are these yellow terribilis that breed orange, or orange terribilis that were selectively bred to NOT throw orange offspring? The OP said that Houston Frogs specifically stated that the frogs he acquired were line bred oranges, yet in the pet store they were labeled as yellows. Houston Frogs also apparently coined the term "Golden" in regards to these frogs, so already we have some misinformation somewhere down the line.

Edit: Despite your opinion about the direction of this thread, I do appreciate Zach's take on what he has observed from this company in the past, as it may help others make a more informed decision. I stand by my original statement now with greater fervor that these not be bred with any other terribilis...or possibly not at all.

 

[Antonio]

From the information I gathered they were selectively breed orange terribilis that show a rose gold color over the orange (not breed by HF for the coloration, rather purchased by HF from another breeder as “golden”. As froglets they are orange in color that changes as they mature to a rose gold color like the adult female picture I posted. I did not directly receive my animals through HF but through a reptile shop that had them labeled as yellow. The retailer was the at fault party for the incorrect label NOT HF. As soon as I contacted HF they readily informed me that the froglets sold to the shop we in fact the golden and not yellow terribilis as labeled by the pet shop. The fact that HF was so open to correct the miss information given to me by the pet shop leads me to believe that HF is not hiding the information and are most likely not selling them as a previous comment mentioned as yellow, but as golden and informing the buyers as to what they are actually purchasing. They were very pleasant to talk to and as stated in my previous comment I will do business with them directly in the future. The retailer that had them labeled incorrectly (not HF) is where I will no longer be purchasing frogs. If I do end up breeding them they will not be breed with any color other than golden from HF and labeled as such. I will be very thorough in my explanation to the buyer as to what they are buying, where mine were acquired and all of the information I know, and insure they must not be breed with any other terribilis colors or lines. I thank you all for your comments and information shared. Let’s not have this thread turn into a bashing HF thread but into an informative conversation about the risks involved when purchasing frogs not directly from the breeder who produced them.

 

[bsr8129]

So again, what of the "normal" terribilis colors is "golden", as stated above from me and others "golden" is not of the normal terribilis colors, HF is introducing a new color of terribilis by calling these "golden" which just furthers causes confusion on what these actually are.

 

[Antonio]

bsr8129: that is pretty much my thoughts exactly. Being they are from orange terribilis that show a golden coloration, would it be best to just call them “orange” in this case. If so, would that not bring some to believe that it may be okay to breed them with an orange specimen? Or would it be ethical to breed them to an orange being they are, from the information I gathered, orange terribilis that have a high yellow trait? I could always inform my credit card company of the fraudulent information I was given upon purchase and that I did not receive the product I intended on purchasing to acquire a refund and cull the animals to be done with the whole issue. But I can not bring myself to do such a thing to a healthy beautiful animal. I’m in the seat of a traditionalist who had no intention of purchasing a line/trait breed animal. I intended on purchasing actual yellow terribilis and was lucky enough to find out from the actual breeder what I had before purchasing additional yellows to add to the group and breed them mucking up such beautiful animals as nature intended them. So on one hand I am glad I actually found out the “golden issue” and the other hand I’m disappointed that I foolishly did not purchase directly from the breeder and now I’m kind of stuck with frogs that I would not have purchased if I had known what I was actually purchasing. I don’t know honestly what to do at this point.

 

[Antonio]

My other option is to speak with the owner of the shop where I purchased the frogs and explain to them my disappointment and grievances with the situation to obtain a refund and give them back the frogs. If I choose this route they will be put back up for sale to another customer who may purchase them and breed them. So that in itself is a potential issue with them being cross breed and put back into the hobby without any regard to what they actually are.

 

[Spaff]

Re: P. terribilis “true golden”?

The retailer was the at fault party for the incorrect label NOT HF. As soon as I contacted HF they readily informed me that the froglets sold to the shop we in fact the golden and not yellow terribilis as labeled by the pet shop. The fact that HF was so open to correct the miss information given to me by the pet shop leads me to believe that HF is not hiding the information and are most likely not selling them as a previous comment mentioned as yellow, but as golden and informing the buyers as to what they are actually purchasing.

Herein lies the problem. There is not such thing as a "golden terribilis", so either Houston Frogs is ignorant of what they themselves are passing around or they made up that selectively bred story to further their gimmicks and sell yellow or orange (or both) terribilis under a made up name, not unlike USA Frogs, etc.

Either way, your blame is misplaced. Perhaps the pet shop where these came from actually has some sense and realized there is no such thing as goldens and is calling them what they are/believe to be. Houston Frogs may be being open to you about this story, but the information they're being open to you about is wrong.

I hate where this thread is going.
Personally I’ve spoken with the owner from HF and seen there setups.
I can say only positive things.
Btw, the true golden T is not sold as true golden T but as yellow T.
I purchased 4 and yes they are orange.

So are they oranges or are they yellows? Two people have spoken to the "source" and gotten two different answers.

 

[DPfarr]

I am not in favor of breeding for the most part. I’m not going to squash a larvae but I’m not going to actively pursue a mating cycle or do anything to encourage the success of eggs.

That being said, if you’re willing to sell and ship via syr, I’ll provide them a nice habit where they can close their chapter on their phenotype.

 

[Antonio]

DPfarr: I appreciate the offer but I am speaking with the owner of HF and everything is being cleared up.

 

[djd3mon]

Re: P. terribilis “true golden”?

I purchased 4 Yellow Terribilis from Houston Frogs 2-3 weeks back at a show in Grapevine, TX.

As far as I know mine are Yellow Terribilis. That is what they were marked as and wjat the guy at the show told me they were. I have not heard anything about this "Golden"frog being in the mix until I read this.

Just sharing my story.



http://i63.tinypic.com/egd99e.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/14qonq.jpg

 

[Diesel]

Lol, years ago there was a huge opposition in cross breeding clown fish.
Now we talking every large marine hobby show the breeders have a new premier.
We can’t stop the evolution in this hobby.
If it is posible hobbyist make it work

 

[Socratic Monologue]

Re: P. terribilis “true golden”?

Lol, years ago there was a huge opposition in cross breeding clown fish.
Now we talking every large marine hobby show the breeders have a new premier.

Perhaps if certain populations or species of clownfish were in danger of being lost, the marine hobby would have a different stance.

If Acropora palmata were kept by hobbyists, I'd wager that folks would be very protective of its lineage purity.

In my corner of the herp hobby, rosy boas (Lichanura orcutti and trivirgata, for the time being, anyway) are in the same situation -- many people are protective of locales being kept pure, because the taxonomy is in flux and mixing up captive populations will eliminate future keepers' knowledge of what (sub)species we have. Some folks who just wanna make money don't seem to care.

 

[DPfarr]

So I noticed HF created an account but haven’t weighed in?