[JPccusa]

What is the difference between the A. Pepperi Orange and A. Pepperi Orange Head? Is there such a thing as A. Pepperi Red (Rood) Head?

If you have pictures to illustrate the explanation, that would be awesome!

 

[stevenhman]

Dendrobates.org - Ameerega pepperi

I believe that the 'rood' are EU imports made by Sean Stewart. After asking him about if the 'rood' and 'orangehead' (Understory) are one and the same he replied that yes they are and can be mixed. Although not to be mixed with the 'orange' or any others.

 

[JPccusa]

Thanks Steven.

Understory Enterprises lists this frog as "Orange"

and this as "Orangehead"

but I do not see the difference in them since their color can changes based on location (more red in the South).

Well, at least I know now that Rood and Orangehead are the same.

 

[thedude]

You have to remember you are looking at a picture of ONE frog for each population. That isn't enough to decide whether or not they look the same. If you look at the link Steven provided you can see some that are very orange and some that have very little that is darker.

 

[JPccusa]

Right... Steven's link is for A. pepperi in general, with exemplars of "Orangehead," "Orange," "Abiseo," "Yellow/Gold," etc. all mixed and unidentified.

I guess what I am trying to know is what makes the orangehead different from the orange. If I were to find an A. pepperi on my doorstep (maybe a gift from someone here ), how would I know that I got one vs. the other?

Or maybe that is not even important and I am just getting hung up on a detail that no one dealing with this species really care about.

 

[stemcellular]

You would not be able to tell, hence the importance of lineage.

 

[JPccusa]

Awesome! That does answer my question...

So Ray, you work with "Oranges," right? Where can I find the history of that (and others) lineage?

Anyone working with frogs from San Francisco (San Martin, Peru)? I assume those have the most red based on this article: http://www.dendrobates.org/articles/Brown&Twomey2009_Three new Ameerega.pdf

 

[stemcellular]

Only A. pepperi in the hobby are from UE, so I would refer you to their site. Otherwise, A. bassleri came in via INIBICO in 2006 and some are still around.

 

[JPccusa]

I got an answer from UE's Mark Pepper regarding the different morphs of A. pepperi:

Hello JP,

Well you have the basics of their biogeography correct, I will break
it down a little more.

Pepperi was a species discovered in late 2005 along the western flank
of the Cordillera Azul. When we first discovered these frogs, we
thought they were southern population which represented a range
extension of A. bassleri. In these mountains it is distributed in mid
altitudes with a north south distribution running from aproximately
Campanea in the north, to near Tocache in the South. The northern
populations are indeed yellow, and right near Tocache you have
wonderful red form.

Those in between are orange to red orange.

The "orange" Is different than the orange head in a few ways. First
within the orange population the orange is often a subdued yellow
orange, and distributed in more robust blotches of colour on the head.
The lateral stripes often closely match the head coloration.

Further south we have the orange head. generally these are a much
more vibrant orange with less colour dorsally, more concentrated on
the head. The bright yellow lateral stripes contrast nicely the deep
orange head. The two frogs side by side are quite different.
Unfortunately the pics on my site are not good representations of the
species.

The Yellow Gold is from Campanea, the northern tip of the range, and
these are deep yellow to gold coloured ones. Overall, darker frogs
than the other populations.

The Abiseo are gorgeous with genourous canary yellow on the head and
dorsum, complimented by bright blue legs.

All populations are closely associated with gentle forest streams,
though running water is not required to breed them in captivity.

The "rood" that are in the us are the same as OrangeHead, and
actually, the founding stock of Rood were animals we exported to
Holland, which were then re-exported to the US. In Europe most orange
frogs are considered red, hence the name change in Europe to "Rood"

Ameerega are the most underappreciated animals in the hobby, seems you
have good taste sir!

kind regards,
Mark

 

[stemcellular]

and I just happen to have some Orange froglets available...though, if you can, I would much rather you support Mark and buy a group!

 

[JPccusa]

I already started a fund for a 4:1 group. Unfortunately Ray, I am set on Orange head. Any chance you'll have some of those towards the second semester of this year? Some that would look similar to this?

I asked Mark and he does not have any available at the moment.

 

[stemcellular]

I already started a fund for a 4:1 group. Unfortunately Ray, I am set on Orange head. Any chance you'll have some of those towards the second semester of this year? Some that would look similar to this?

I asked Mark and he does not have any available at the moment.

Nope, I work with 'Orange' which is what the frog in the photograph is.

 

[Manuran]

Quality frogs do breed when put in the right hands and you have to sell, trade, or give a few away at some point.
But, it always makes me feel good when you see someone respecting the hard work that someone else has done by giving them the right of way. We all know Mark deserves that. On this forum, I always read about supporting great ideas. This is one we can all contribute a little to. Ray, I actually started clapping my hands to applaud you!

 

[JPccusa]

Nope, I work with 'Orange' which is what the frog in the photograph is.

Your Oranges break the rules.
- "The orange is often a subdued yellow orange" - Nope
- "The lateral stripes often closely match the head coloration" - Nope
- "Orange head are generally a much more vibrant orange" - Yours are
- "The bright yellow lateral stripes [on Orange Heads] contrast nicely the deep orange head" - Yours do

I guess I could work with these Oranges after all.

 

[stemcellular]

Haha, thanks Chuck. Knowing what I do about how much time, effort and $ Mark and Manuel put into getting these frogs to us, I think the very least we can do is encourage folks to purchase directly from the source. Also, as anyone who gets frogs from UE well knows, they tend to send adult (or near adult) specimens. May cost more, but you also get more bang for your buck. (I know, bordering on VF, but it is not - it is simply a demonstrable fact).

 

[stevenhman]

The "rood" that are in the us are the same as OrangeHead, and
actually, the founding stock of Rood were animals we exported to
Holland, which were then re-exported to the US. In Europe most orange
frogs are considered red, hence the name change in Europe to "Rood"

That's hilarious. Also, it's a super awesome and detailed reply.

I wish I had a nice camera! I even cleaned my tank (some) to take pictures tomorrow when lights come on.

 

[JPccusa]

What about those pictures Steven?

 

[JimO]

Haha, thanks Chuck. Knowing what I do about how much time, effort and $ Mark and Manuel put into getting these frogs to us, I think the very least we can do is encourage folks to purchase directly from the source. Also, as anyone who gets frogs from UE well knows, they tend to send adult (or near adult) specimens. May cost more, but you also get more bang for your buck. (I know, bordering on VF, but it is not - it is simply a demonstrable fact).

I would like to add that the chrome "blue/green" bassleri became my favorites overnight and the four I got are every bit as vibrant and stunning as the photos on Understory's site. I might need to send them to you Ray to get some decent photos of them, although I fear you might be tempted not to send them back.

 

[stemcellular]

Already have a big group, Jim, just haven't gotten to shooting them yet.

 

[stevenhman]

A couple of days ago:

~6 months ago

Tank before 'cleaning'

And after

One on a film can

3 of the group came out today after misting. A 4th made an appearance - then quickly hid again when the camera was spotted